ManusOpenAIAIAgentsAGIAIForHumans100

Gavin Purcell: [00:00:00] In less than a year, 90% of all computer code is gonna be written by computers themselves. What we are finding is we are not far from the world. I think we'll be there in three to six months where AI is writing 90% of the code as predicted, 2025 is turning out to be the year of AI powered agents and Manus, which came outta China, has rocked the AI world yet again.

Gavin Purcell: Wait, Kevin, is this another deep seek moment? Do I have to be, is it deep seek? It's, well, it's more like a wrapper for Claude, and we'll explain what that. Sell, sell, sell. Okay, we will explain what all of that means. Don't worry. Plus, we're running down open AI's latest announcements and Hira released a new tool, which lets you puppet AI characters also checks.

Gavin Purcell: Notes. Robots are running actual marathons. Now you know, Kevin, this look kind of works on me. This is actually episode 100 of AI for Humans.[00:01:00]

Gavin Purcell: Kevin, there is big news afoot in the AI world. The biggest news, Gavin, is that you don't know that I cooked a surprise for you last night in honor of episode one. Congratulations, congrat. What was it? You gonna' get to play it? At the end of the show because I vibe coded something special for you that is amazing.

Gavin Purcell: I can't wait to try it. That is a genuine surprise. But first, Kevin, we do have to discuss kind of the biggest news of the week, and it starts with this really fascinating quote from Anthropics Dario e Mote. Let's play that right now. But now getting to kind of the job side of this, um, I, I, I do have a fair amount of concern about this.

Gavin Purcell: Um, on one hand, I think comparative advantage is a very powerful tool. If I look at. Coding programming, which is one area where AI is making the most progress. Um, what we are finding is we are not far from the world. I think we'll be there in three to six months where AI is writing 90% of the code. And then in 12 months we may be in a world [00:02:00] where AI is writing essentially all of the code.

Gavin Purcell: Okay. Okay. So that's a year. That's fine. 15 a year. A lot can happen in a year. I, I wanna start with this for a couple reasons 'cause we're gonna get into all sorts of really interesting AI agent talk today. There's some big news out of China with Manus, their new AI agent. Um, and OpenAI has released some agent tools.

Gavin Purcell: But the reason I want to start with this, Kevin, is that it's a very important thing for our audience and the world at large to kind of understand this both speed and scale that this ai, uh, is getting to in this particular side of wor, of the world, of the business world. Because, you know, for a long time I actually just, uh, uh, posted about this on my LinkedIn page, which is like, you know, the worst of the social networks, but I've been spending a fair amount of time there.

Gavin Purcell: There's a story in like the Wall Street Journal last week where, uh, people, uh, tech parents, parents who were originally, uh, pushing their kids into the tech world or into coding are now telling their kids to go into creative skill, uh, jobs because they believe that tech [00:03:00] is going to change so much in the next little bit.

Gavin Purcell: And I only say that to kind of give that quote context, because to me I heard that quote from Dario and it kind of still shocked me a little bit. As somebody who spent a lot of time in this space, I dunno, what is your first reaction to that? That it was less than a year ago. We were having an argument on this very podcast with Pirate software who graciously came on and guested and, and put his finger to the wind and said, there's no way that the machines will ever write code that will be deployable or good.

Gavin Purcell: And we, you know, kindly entertained that, but I think pushed back on that for good reason because you. You tend to lose the never argument when it comes to arguing against what technology can do, given enough time. And I think that we're here. I think that, um, my anecdotal experience with this is that every month now I unlock new capabilities by being able to just communicate using natural language with machines and ship useful tools and make proof of concepts, or, you and I have been [00:04:00] working on something behind the scenes for a while now, and we're just shocked at how far it's come in just a short period of time.

Gavin Purcell: So, yeah, I I believe that a large percentage of code will be written by ai. Um, why Combinator? Which is a, like a, a venture, uh, backed kind of company. Basically, they spin up startups, right? They fund small stage startups. They had a stat that they announced recently that was like an a, an overwhelming majority of their new batch of companies, which they've given money to, are using AI to generate a majority of their code Now.

Gavin Purcell: That does not mean that competent programmers aren't needed. That doesn't mean that that code is going to be secure or scalable, uh, or elegantly written. You know, it doesn't mean any of that, but it does mean that it's gonna write a lot of it, and I think there's still going to be a place. Uh, for professionals who can read the code and understand what's going on to make sure that there's nothing malicious injected into it, that it's not gonna cause a problem rolling it out to something else.

Gavin Purcell: But I, I [00:05:00] fully believe that this is absolutely where we're heading. Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting thing to think about when you kind of internalize that idea and you start to think that obviously AI are very specifically directed towards code writing because it's logic based. It's the kind of stuff that they're actually able to kind of grab onto.

Gavin Purcell: We are gonna talk a little bit later about a new model from open ai, not public, that Sam Altman tweeted about, that is specifically focused on creative writing. So creatives, you are not safe right now, but this is a, a kind of a, a, a watershed moment, I think. And Dario is somebody. Kinda unlike Sam, who I think most people believe is coming.

Gavin Purcell: Not that Sam is a full hype beast, but Sam does talk his own bag a lot and Dario does too. But, but Dar has traditionally been tempered, right? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Dario is a little bit more tempered and, and so when somebody like that says this, it make, it should make you sit up. And I think the other part of this, Kevin, that we kind of teased in the beginning of the show that kind of made people sit up over the weekend were two big new coding updates.

Gavin Purcell: One is from China, which is Manus, which we're [00:06:00] gonna talk about first. Then the other one we'll talk about a bit is from Open ai, which is a new coding, API. And we'll explain to you what those two things mean. But just referencing that article that you read, are these parents right, for saying go into art?

Gavin Purcell: 'cause it's, it's not like the AI won't be able to generate full movies and music and everything else. Like should they get into communications so they know how to speak, uh, to the machines or poetry so they can creatively describe it? Or should they go to a trade school? Well, okay, here's the, I will tell you very quickly, um, not to get too derailed by this, but my thesis on this was yes, obviously already creative businesses are not doing great either.

Gavin Purcell: If anybody who in our audience that works in Hollywood or works in video games understands are in a real downturn, in part because some of the jobs are being eliminated for this reason, but for other reasons as well. My biggest thing is this should open up a conversation with the entire world. And there are a lot of smart people that are now focusing on this.

Gavin Purcell: I heard a really great, um, podcast. It's four hours long from a guy named Will McCaskill. Um, it's on the 80,000 Hours [00:07:00] podcast, which may be about how long this podcast is, but, but it is a really deep dive look at a person who used to be, he's actually one of the philosophers that started the Effective Altruism movement, which if you remember was a, a long story that you can dig in on Google on or chat g pt, um, where he was kind of very anti AI in the beginning and kind of aware of what was going on.

Gavin Purcell: He has pretty much flipped his position now in, in terms of like, he's basically seen what's coming. And I think this is an important kind of conversation for everybody to have right now. And the reason I bring this podcast up and in relation to the article is. My biggest thing is we have to start thinking about how and what meaningful work means.

Gavin Purcell: Right? What does it mean to do meaningful work for people? So I think that feels like the biggest conversation going forward is to your point, you know, is poetry meaningful work? It probably is to some people. But you know, right now I did not get a poetry degree. In fact, I was very interested in possibly getting an MFA in college in poetry because I had, uh, I wrote quite a bit of it and [00:08:00] I had professors that liked it.

Gavin Purcell: But literally the reason I did not go is because you cannot make very much money in poetry. Do you know what I mean? Right. Like, it was not a smart move to get an MFA in poetry. But if you could, if you could have a life that felt meaningful and that was what you wanted to focus on, it probably would be a good use of human time, you know?

Gavin Purcell: Well, I guess, um, I guess the only poetry you need to write is a haiku that directs agents to go out and do your bidding. Yes. What is, what would it be, be, and help you understand what meaning is. Help me manness, please. That's five syllables. Yeah. Yeah. I need a new term paper now. That's seven syllables. Um, I am more on today.

Gavin Purcell: There you go. That's my, that's my Manus haiku. I'm more on today. I thought it was like more on like MORE on something. Oh actually, that, that could work both ways. That's deep. I'm, now I get it. Or I am more onm. OOI am more on Today is great. Is more on, yeah. We we're gonna call the podcast that actually for it was more on today.

Gavin Purcell: I had more on today. [00:09:00] Alright. So I'm sorry I derailed with that. But I think it, it is an interesting discussion and I, I like that take, but let's get into it. Manis the deep seek moment for AI agents that within three hours was a basically approximated and open sourced. But yeah. Let's take a step back.

Gavin Purcell: What is Manis Gavin, what is this agentic future we keep ranting about and, uh, what, what can it do now? So IWI got into Manus. It is a limited beta, and just to be very basic on it, it is a, um, agentic, uh, computer operating system from a company in China. And the idea with it basically is just like, um, opening eyes operator and very much like philanthropics computer use, which we'll get into in a second here.

Gavin Purcell: It takes over your, uh, window on your computer, not on your local computer, but in the cloud. And you can tell it to go and do things. So as I said, I got into it and I have to say it's pretty impressive. Um, the first thing I asked it because, uh, I play a lot of the game tro still, it's been out forever, but it is like my soth place.

Gavin Purcell: Great game. So I will still, I'll still go back to it pretty often, [00:10:00] like daily almost, is just a way to kind of think through stuff. I asked it. Can you create a TRO strategy guide for me to get to, um, if you've played tro, you know, there's like, there's a mid and high game and when you get to the high game, you have to kind of keep going until infinity.

Gavin Purcell: I wanted to see if you could get me to the Nan Infinity score, which is like basically where the game kind of semi breaks, but that's like the way to win. It basically the first time it created a strategy guide. I watched it, it went through all of the, all of the websites, it went to all the right places and I didn't do anything.

Gavin Purcell: I was just watching as it worked and it came back with a basic strategy guide, not the one I had asked for. And then I said, can you get me to this? 'cause this is what I really wanted. And it really did it. Like I'll, I'll you share. In our discord, I'll share the strategy guide created, but. That very much feels like a duplicate of what deep research is doing at Open ai, right?

Gavin Purcell: Like instead of in deep research, you're not seeing what it's doing, but it's doing the same amount of work. So in that instance, it works. It is free. Right now, I don't think that's possible to continue because as you and I both know, in our secret startup that we've been [00:11:00] discovering is that like the costs of AI are not free and that, and you know, you do cross a lot of other things over there far from from.

Gavin Purcell: So that worked and then I tried something else with it. I wanted, this is actually a game we should make and maybe we can help vibe code this, or somebody in our audience can make it. I wanted to make what's called an endless walking simulator. And basically what it is, is like you're just walking and beautiful neighborhoods and beautiful places and you collect things along the way and you're surprised by stuff, but you can't run, you can't jump, you just endlessly walk.

Gavin Purcell: So something about that to me felt like funny and dumb. And what was amazing about this is it set up a 15 stage pla play play of how to do this. It showed me what the 15 steps were gonna be and it got through like the first six or seven and it kept going, like it was working for like an hour and a half on this thing.

Gavin Purcell: Wow. So much as in it also writes code, unlike deep research, it does a code writing thing too. And there's been people online who have shown what it can do. The problem is about step seven or eight, it got stopped and it got stopped for long context. And then it said it had a fatal flaw. So the the, [00:12:00] as you stepped away and this thing was crunching for hours.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. And writing code by the way. Not, not just, not just writing words, writing code the whole time. Right. But the part of that was researching, you know, what should this game be built on? Yes. What platform, what, what tooling and then what kind of things should happen in the game. So it was kind of doing the, the product manager research role it Unity, it started writing code for Unity, unity game and it was doing all this stuff and.

Gavin Purcell: Granted, like, I don't think it would've been able to execute that, but it was writing all the Unity code. Like I could see it, like, I mean, I don't know what Unity Code looks like, but it was writing code to go into the Unity stuff. But yeah, if you would've given it like a more pared down thing, like, Hey, let's make this run in a browser and make it, you know, laptop compatible, so it's a low powered blah, blah, blah, it probably would've done the necessary research for that.

Gavin Purcell: And instead of write the actual code, just gimme uh, gimme ways to describe how to code this to an engineer would be an output that I bet it wouldn't fail on. And you would have the plan for your game. Yeah, and you know that, that some people have tried that already. And, you know, we've talked [00:13:00] about vibe coding a lot and, and, and there's a lot of people out there if there's a pretty good, um, uh, min Choi who does a good job of collecting a bunch of variety of, of obviously Tweet storms.

Gavin Purcell: He is a tweet, uh, master in that way, but he has a, we'll, we'll share a link. He has about 10 different various, um, use cases of manis and saw what people did. I think what's interesting about this is. You know, it is first and foremost really interesting to see both. What, because this is kind of a combination of what operator is, open AI's operator or computer use and deep research in the same thing.

Gavin Purcell: Now the dare you, this is, this is the secret sauce on this is unknown Gavin. There is a Colonel Sanders esque recipe behind the scenes. Yes. That allows Manus to be this all seeing, all knowing, navigate the web as it exists, use a graphical user interface. There must be so much technology going on here that we couldn't comprehend it, we couldn't cobble it together, and it was cloned in less than three hours.

Gavin Purcell: Well, here's the funniest thing about this, which is that it is actually using Anthropics computer [00:14:00] use. So Jean X ow on X had tweeted out the fact pretty quickly that this was essentially a sonnet cla sonnet wrapper with 29 tools using browser use. So Kevin, what's interesting to me about that is I don't think it actually makes this thing less interesting, especially for the fact like for right now, it's free to try.

Gavin Purcell: Made it more interesting to me, to be honest. Yeah. So tell me why, 'cause I'm curious on your end, why it made it more interesting. Okay, so when we say something is a wrapper, we use that term a lot. But if you're, if you're new to this podcast or this space, that means it is a, is a tool that that wraps around another core technology.

Gavin Purcell: So in this case, the intelligence that is powering this machine that can browse the web, click on links, think, think deeply about a task that's a known entity that is, yeah, as you said, it was built on, on Claude Sonnet it looks like. So they took existing, actually kind of outdated. It's an older model that they're using.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, I think it was 3.5. So they're using outdated, uh, outdated large language model and wrapping this functionality around it, which means if you wanted to [00:15:00] build your own, you probably could, like it won't take infinite resources and billions of dollars. In fact, I, I keep saying that less than three hours after this came out, when people realized what it was doing, there were two open source versions released that will let you kind of run this on your own and you can either plug it into open AI or, the reason I said it made me more interested is that I love a future where open source catches up with the big leagues even faster.

Gavin Purcell: And so rather than having to pay out the, no, yes, the service is free right now, but that will not last forever unless there's some crazy ad supported something. But I'll digress there for a second. I love a world Gavin, where you and I on our laptops can run. We'll talk about Gemma. Coming out later in the show.

Gavin Purcell: They actually just came out today as this recording with Google. But I love a world where you and I can run a small intelligence model on our phones or on our desktop and then have a tool like this, which can use that intelligence to go off and do things for us. Yeah, it's, and it doesn't have to be, it's this all powerful something.

Gavin Purcell: It doesn't have to be the service that we don't know and [00:16:00] trust. We can run these things locally and we can hack and play with them so that they can work the way we need them to. And that's how it escapes eventually too. It gets out on our computers and we're the reason why the AI escapes and takes over the world.

Gavin Purcell: The paperclip problem is our problem. Kevin, that's percent what you wanted to say, isn't it? You want the paperclip problem to happen? Uh, the paperclip problem is not a problem, it's a solution. I've been saying that all along. Clippy is the end game. It's a solution. It's a solution. That's right. So actually this is a good transition because one of the things I think that's really interesting, as I alluded to before, those open source models of this and also what we're gonna talk about next, which is open AI's API both are very expensive to run.

Gavin Purcell: And so you hear these stories about like, wow, look at all these cool things you can do on your own. And this is why Manis is actually interesting right now 'cause they're use letting use it for free. The amount of tokens that you need for this kind of back and forth is really interesting. Let's get into open AI's response and, and I wanna talk a little bit about the timing of this too, because if you remember last time Deep Sea came out, there was this huge news cycle around the [00:17:00] idea of like, oh my God, they figured out, um, reasoning models and it's open source and look at what their, their crushing open AI and also crushing Nvidia and it dropped the stock market down.

Gavin Purcell: Well, a day after Manis happened, like Manis kind of blew up over the weekend. You see OpenAI come out with this update, which I think to me feels very much like a response. Mm-hmm. To what Manis is. Right. So let's talk, Kevin. What is this thing that OpenAI talked about is, it was mentioned as being like for the devs, but I think for people out there who are not devs or might be interested in like what the state of the art with these AI agents is, this is probably really interesting to talk about.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, so it is a new API called responses, which has a bunch of different, uh, features and functionality built in. Um, the three that they really focused on are web search, file search, and then computer use. So web search is what it sounds like. It's wild that people who use chat GPT take for granted, like, oh, it's really good at searching the web and going and reading blog posts and fetching those Reddit comments and giving them back like, yeah, it's good at that.

Gavin Purcell: Except if you were developing with [00:18:00] open AI in mind, you'd never had access to that tool. Yeah. And it was mind boggling, especially for someone who has expectations, like people literally calling them going, why doesn't our thing do this? Well, 'cause you can't with it. So you had to go and bolt on.

Gavin Purcell: Perplexity or DuckDuckGo or Google or Bing or something else, you had to go externally for your web searches. Well, now they're built in. It's the same web search functionality that chat GPT has. It's a huge deal for developers, which will become a huge deal for users because a lot of people develop on open ai.

Gavin Purcell: Um, we can get to the cost of that. In a minute. Yeah. Okay. Let's get to it now. It's expensive. Yeah. Like crazy expensive. Like, I mean, let's, let's go through like what it actually costs. 'cause I think it, people should understand this like 3 cents. The basic per query. Yeah. So imagine that. So you're building an app, let's say, or, and you're, every time somebody has a question for you, it makes, it costs 3 cents.

Gavin Purcell: So as a developer, the pass through cost to you is incredibly [00:19:00] expensive. In fact, I felt bad after I read this last night. Wait, did you feel bad because you cost open AI money searching for, okay, what is it? I mean, this is not, this is by the way super interesting, but I asked, is it true that South Korea has the lowest fertility rate in the world?

Gavin Purcell: And if so, why? This was me following up on a, a tweet that was interesting. I saw. But what was interesting is, yes, they do have some of the lowest in the world. Maybe not the lowest, but anyway, that was something that I use opening eye for to ask. So if you are a developer and you're think, Hey, I could make a, an a question and answers app, unless you charge a boatload of money for that app, you are not going to be able to make money on this thing.

Gavin Purcell: And you, it also speaks to Kevin, just how much money is being lost at these major companies as well as all these little AI startups in some form. Well, you, you know, like OpenAI, it clearly they need the, the money machines to start printing, right? They've raised a lot. They're going to raise a lot more. Is that 3 cents per query?

Gavin Purcell: Is that a 250% markup on all of the things, or is that really. What it's costing them. Are they losing money with these coin? I bet they might be [00:20:00] losing money or some like it's hard to imagine that. Well, in part, you know, the question I have is too is they can't price it so cheap that they lose a lot of money.

Gavin Purcell: So you have to realize that this pricing has to be at least break even for them, I think. But still, that almost becomes like, unless you are a major company that has money in the coffers already, it is hard to imagine that being able to be used. Right. Well, it's here, it's expensive, but it's nice that it's here.

Gavin Purcell: And I do expect, I mean, OpenAI is usually pretty good about dropping costs on things, especially in the wake of competitors. So we'll see, um, if that gets there. The other two things, um, file search is kind of what it sounds like, the ability to retrieve. Customer data or user data. So we pull out your preferences or if you've ever shopped before, if you have a specific model of something, here's your support document.

Gavin Purcell: Like big deal for developers, nice to have. Um, it seems very elegant. All of these tools, by the way, are like six lines of code to get started. Yeah. It's basically nothing. And if you're listening to this and going like, uh, what does this even mean to me? [00:21:00] If you have an idea for something and you wanna be on Shark Tank, having to do a royalty deal with Kevin O'Leary a year from now, these are the tools that you can quickly whisper into a machine and get results out of.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. Um, yeah. And then number three, which is kind of the reason for the season here, is the computer use is now part of the API. So if you, um. Wanna build an application or something that you need, uh, an agentic browser to happen. OpenAI will spin up a machine and allow it to go, browse the web search, do things.

Gavin Purcell: I think this is what you were leading to, Gavin, you believe that the, the timing of this is, oh, it's on the heels of this Yes. Manis thing. Maybe they were already cooking on it and just waiting because it is an interesting, like someone takes a shot out of a cannon and it seems like right away OpenAI is there with a Okay.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had this one on the shelf, but we had no reason to really release it just yet. So yeah. Now we're answering. Or do you think it's 95% of the way there and they're like, oh, we gotta get it out because this other thing happened. I, I, it was probably a little bit of both. My assumption is [00:22:00] that, and we've talked about in the show when Deep Sea came out, that even Sam had said they're gonna start shipping stuff faster.

Gavin Purcell: And my assumption in part, it was like, in the OpenAI world, they have all this stuff. They, they have like a year's worth of stuff they've been working on that isn't out and stuff that's pushed out further still. I just think this is the, we ship faster, we go quicker. This is the place they're gonna be. So plenty of tools announced for developers, but if you want to know what they look and feel like, uh, I'm shouting out.

Gavin Purcell: Hashtag not an ad. Uh, browser based.com. If you go to cu a dot browser based.com, that's computer use agent cu a dot browser based.com. You can watch AI browse the web right there, like they let you run it for free for now. And it's, you know, it's, it's what you expect. So, you know, the, some of the suggestions are.

Gavin Purcell: Um, you know, play a challenging game of 2048 or check the price of Nvidia stock. Gavin, what request would you like for me to give to this right now? Give, give me fi guy Fury's current location. Okay. I don't know if it's gonna, it might reject that. Oh, right off you rejected it. Right out it [00:23:00] said, I'm unable to provide real time information about others.

Gavin Purcell: Okay. So let's ask it. Um, I'm able to help with that request is all I got. All right, let's go back. Yeah, let, let's ask it, uh, uh, what is Guy Fury's signature dish? We're eating it right now. Where would he be eating it? Ho, hold on. That's not good either, because it, it just gives you an answer in the chat.

Gavin Purcell: Let's see. We gotta think of something that it can do genetically. It doesn't even do that genetically like that. Oh, no. Hold on, hold on. I, I, okay. I just spun up a new computer use browser. Okay. I said, what is Guy FI's signature dish? Uh, I can see it now. It, it went right to Google. It's searching Guy FI's signature dish.

Gavin Purcell: Okay. Which is something, uh, it says it's, uh, pressing the keys enter. And the reasoning, the reasoning is submitting the search query to find information about the requested topic. This will execute the search and retrieve relevant results. Look, we say this all the time. This is as, this is the worst these tools will ever be.

Gavin Purcell: Yes. And Gavin, by the way, like, not, not a total aside, but I am now like my patience level is less than thin. [00:24:00] Yes. When, when people who know about ai, who use AI ask the most basic question that have just whispered into the machine, they would not only get an answer, they would get step by step, let me hold your hand instructions.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. And now it's like, there was a site called, let me Google that for you. Back in the day, it might still exist, where basically you type a question and you hit a button. You send somebody that link. So when someone asks you like. Hey, uh, how many moons are there? You just type it in into, let me Google that for you.

Gavin Purcell: And they click the link. It literally googles it for them. Yeah, that's, this is the new, let me Google that for you. So we're on step seven by the way of it. Reading a business insider article. Trying to figure out, we're only at $500 on the clock too as well. So Sorry. Browser use. Browser base. We apologize.

Gavin Purcell: This is actually an American psyop to tank China's economy because we are, we are charging Well this is opening eye. This is using opening eye. Kevin, we're tanking America about Oh, you wait. I thought this was mad. You've been double psyop. We've been double out the call's coming from inside the house.

Gavin Purcell: I'm sorry. I'm a traitor. I have to leave this country. Okay, [00:25:00] I'm just gonna ask the same thing. What is Guy FI's. Signature. You know what's interesting is, 'cause it's showing you the steps here, and it was like step 12 was control f. It was trying to do a find on the page and waiting for the page to respond.

Gavin Purcell: And now it's just scrolling around trying to get more context. It's on step 15. Oh no, really? Okay, well, let's see. Two, two minutes and 35 seconds into age agentic use, and we still don't have the answer. Manus has, uh, a 15, no, 1, 2, 3, 5, like a 12 step process that's going through right now. It's, it's analyzing the search results.

Gavin Purcell: So maybe we should, for right now, Kev. Uh, um, yeah, we can come back to this away and we'll come back and see which one can do the best at this. And meanwhile, we should transition into, Hey, are you listening to this podcast on audio or are you watching it on YouTube? Guess what? We need your help. Share this podcast, subscribe on the YouTube channel.

Gavin Purcell: Do all this [00:26:00] stuff that you can to help us spread the word about this podcast. AI for humans, we like making it. It is the kind of thing that Kevin and I spend our own time on because we enjoy doing it. We also enjoy anytime we hear from our audience. So please spread the word. If you have an extra couple bucks, we have a Patreon that's basically a tip jar for us.

Gavin Purcell: You can find the link in our show notes. Please support us. And thank you so much for listening or watching for just 5 cents a query. You too can help AI for humans, humans reach an audience of dozens. No, it really sharing the thing is the only way we grow. It's this thing. So thank you. And please don't use AI agents to subscribe to the podcast.

Gavin Purcell: You have to do it yourself and tell your friends and tell your family. To please give us a sub, share it like it. Thank you for the support, Gavin. I'm at four minutes now and this thing is still. Yeah, I'm still clicking about, so funny, I'm at, uh, uh, I'm now at like step five. Manis is working. Check completeness of gathered information.

Gavin Purcell: So, so Manis is still going on this. We'll see what's happening in the meantime. Kev, I do wanna mention one thing about opening [00:27:00] eyes. Current situation. Sam Al been pushed out tweet yesterday that made a lot of people mad. Um, I don't know if you saw this, but basically he said that they are working on a creative writing version of one of their engines, one of their lms.

Gavin Purcell: And he pushed out a, a story that he had written. And to be honest with you, like. It was confusing to me because the story is not the kind of thing that you would normally put out there. He asked specifically for a story that was a metafictional story about grief and ai. When you read it, it is interesting, right?

Gavin Purcell: Like it's clearly making interesting creative choices. It is making stuff. A lot of people came out of the woodwork and said how much it blew, how much it sucked. I didn't think it was as bad as most people said, but what I would rather see something like this is like almost give it the ability to write a simple story.

Gavin Purcell: You know, a couple weeks ago, I, I tried to get Chachi PT to write spicy, like, you know, romance fiction. I would rather see it try that than some sort of like, kind of way out there metafictional idea. Because I think then you start to get to the place of like, is it trying to be [00:28:00] literary? Anyway, Kev, this was an interesting space because we've talked about for a while creative writing and creative tasks as being something that humans would kind of like want more than anything else.

Gavin Purcell: And, and I think this is going to be the next age. Agentic world is like, yeah, what does it look like when you read say a short story or a novel written by a computer that you may or may not know is written by computer that moves you in some way? And not that this one did. I don't think so. But yeah, I would say there's a LinkedIn article being posted right now, Gavin, about parents telling their kids to get into kinesiology now.

Gavin Purcell: Like, oh, we said, we said get away. Get away from coding and tech and go into arts. Okay. Uh, get away from the arts, get into anything. But that's right, it's time now. You gotta leave the arts. Get into, uh, welding welding's. The only thing gonna be around. Yes, yes. Use your hands until the robots catch up. But obviously Gavin, there was the never AI saying, I hate this right off the rip, but.

Gavin Purcell: The response that actually resonated with me. 'cause I felt this as well, like as I was reading it, I was looking for like the buckle up buttercup, or let's delve into the blah, blah, blah. The [00:29:00] usual AI tropes. Obviously they weren't there, so it was like, okay, this is, it's clearly something different, but I just didn't care.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. Like I was interested in it on a technical level, but one of the responses that resonated with me because it was what I was feeling when I scrolled to it, was like just not interested in Yeah. This thing written by a robot. And I, I wonder if that will be the end result of this that's still like, you know, we say it, we've said it before, computers can crush humans that playing chess, but I'm not interested in watching two robots play chess.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, I think somebody at some point will publish a book, uh, anonymously as a robot. Basically. They'll write a book and they'll have surprise, surprise, surprise, surprise the robot, and that will be a conversation. But I think you're absolutely right. I think ultimately people wanna hear stories. Oh, by the way, Manis is done on my end as your still going.

Gavin Purcell: Uh, mine at session time. It's at six minutes and 33. Seconds of a five minute limited session, and it's now on the footer of Business Insider trying, [00:30:00] trying to access account options. Well, okay. I will tell you my, uh, the Manus one doesn't show you exactly step by step when you're doing something like this.

Gavin Purcell: It's a little bit more like deep research. It shows you the tasks it goes through, but the answer it gave me is that his signature dish is dragon's breath chili. So what I would love to be able to do is, according to the Food Network, the recipe has 547 stars, the high rating of 4.8 outta five stars. I'm just curious to Google it.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. You know, so it's interesting, like so what it, it has sources here that it basically has said. What's really funny is that in Manus says Dragon's Breath Chili was declared the winner when pitted against Jimmy Fallon's chili recipe. So shout out to my friend Jimmy Fallon. I used to work on that joke.

Gavin Purcell: Whoa. Well, how weird is it that like they're using that as the reason, but. But well if you just, you do a Google search for Guy fii, signature Dish Gemini. Yeah. Does a fantastic job of putting it right there at the top. Highlighted and half a second. Now do you see it at the top because I don't, I see bacon, mac and cheeseburger.

Gavin Purcell: Not, not. I did the exact same search on, [00:31:00] on it and I don't see dragon's breath chili. So I see dragon's breath chili, uh, in the AI overview and if I hit more info, it's signature dishes, dragons, breath, chili, number one, then mac and cheese, the second one. Then chili number three. Kevin, we have found something crazy.

Gavin Purcell: Are we in a FII bubble? What's going on in the FII verse there is on my AI search overview, there is no dragons breath chili mentioned at all. Like it talks about, it basically gives like the bacon, mac and cheeseburger with what's in it. And then one thing it does say is donkey mayo sauce. In parentheses it says FII signature.

Gavin Purcell: So I wonder if in my search that's what came up. That is a spicy open AI take on a romantic novel Is Guy fii. Donkey mayo. That's why that's popping up on only your computer, Gavin. You're right. That's exactly right. And you twisted. And by the way, on step 54 of the computer use agent browser, it says, I've encountered some issues with the page navigation, but based off what I've gathered so far, guy fii signature dish is often considered to [00:32:00] be dragons breath chili.

Gavin Purcell: Oh, okay. So they came up with the same answer. So, so again, yeah. It only, I'm sorry, minutes to open eye and sorry to open eye philanthropic or, or Manus. We just wasted a thousand dollars on this. But it's the same thing as a Google. But, but again, just to be clear, this is an experiment to show you how these computers can work on their own.

Gavin Purcell: And like deep research, you send it away and it comes back with something. And, and to, to the idea that like you can send away stuff. What if you sent away 15 things at once and it can scale at a certain level. So a lot of stuff there to think about with AI agents. Um, Kevin, speaking of scale. Yeah. We should quickly talk about a thing that Google dropped today, which is Gemma three.

Gavin Purcell: Now. Mostly we've avoided these Gemma models 'cause they've never been that exciting. This is a small model, meaning that it is designed to work on, you know, very small processing. Uh, the highest level of it. I think there's a 32 gigabyte version, and it can work on one H 100, which is not something anybody has at their house.

Gavin Purcell: But the smaller models can work on regular graphics cards and work [00:33:00] locally. And coming from Google, I. The results on this are pretty good 'cause it's, it's getting to Gemini 1.5 levels, which is pretty awesome. Yeah, I mean, look, the, they're on their chatbot arena ELO score graph, which we, we don't have to get into the weeds on that, just know that it is getting up there with deep Seeq R one, which is a massive compute intensive reasoning model.

Gavin Purcell: And this thing requires a lot less resources and seems to perform nearly as good. So what happens when you pour reasoning into this model as well, but this is the type of intelligence that is now, it's multimodal. So you can snap a photo of something and it can analyze it. Um. Uh, summarize things and it, it's gonna be running in our pockets.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. Like very, very soon we're going to have like state of the art level intelligence in our, in our phones. Like that. Exciting. Yeah. And state of the art. Now, in a year from now, it may be different, right? But the same way that you might buy a Mac M two now, because you don't need the power of the mam four.

Gavin Purcell: That is probably where the [00:34:00] consumer will be and it will be cheaper, faster, and just as good of the say they are right now. So big deal there. Kudos to Google. Um, the other big opening, uh, of new tool we wanna talk briefly about is Hera, our friends at Hera. We love those guys. They've been around for a bit.

Gavin Purcell: They just dropped, um, character three. So this is their new lip sync model. And Kevin, I did find there's a, they've had a few kind of glitches in their website, but they're worked out pretty well. I definitely have spent a little bit of time, I wanna spend more time with this. I, I owe them. I feel like I'm gonna do some sort of new goofy thing.

Gavin Purcell: 'cause I, I love doing several tools. I, I see a lot of people using the tool and I, and, and people seem to be pretty impressed just to level set. He's a tool that lets you, um, add like lip movement and basic head movement to characters. But now this new update gives you almost full body control in some cases.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah, I mean, I, I would say it's not like, it's a little tricky because my experience with it so far has been mostly it, it does, it does hands and if you look at the video, they release, like there's a lot of really interesting stuff. I, there's a, there's a video from Colonel Tasty, which is great. Uh, Twitter name, his [00:35:00] name is at Joshua, says, uh, where he animated an old woman.

Gavin Purcell: I'm very fond to old AI people. Oh, this looks, looks great. It's very cool. And you can see the hand movement of the woman's cigarette, like kind of moving back and forth as she talks. I actually asked this guy on XI said. Do you mind sharing what you prompted in the text box here? And he basically said like, I use image JX for the, for the picture.

Gavin Purcell: I used a picture to upload. He used 11 labs and I asked him, oh no, I'm not talking about that. I'm actually talking about on Hera now. It allows you to prompt additional stuff when you want to use it. He said nothing. So he just put in the, uh, graphic, the image and he put in the audio clip. It didn't for the movement of the, the hand and the robe with the cigarette.

Gavin Purcell: And yeah, it's, I mean, it looks very good. Yeah. So, uh, so I sent you something that we should play here. I haven't seen that seen it yet that I just tried to do this morning. And, you know, one of the things that I'm often struggle with, I just texted, it's a group of people who are like a bunch of very smart AI people and nobody got back to me about the idea of my text was, Hey, does anybody here have, uh, [00:36:00] experienced animating non-human characters in lip sync?

Gavin Purcell: And like I, all these people that are these very smart AI people, like, just kind of silence me and I realize they probably all think I'm trying to do some sort of weird, like, furry style, uh, uh, AI animation stuff. So anyway, you're trying to make Ty's donkey Mayo talk to you. Exactly. And no one wants any part of your sick and twisted games, Gavin, right?

Gavin Purcell: So we have our classic sur smiling Terminator robot. I created an image of him in his new studio. 'cause I think this is an easy way to look at this stuff. I, I then added a, a clip from 11 labs and I just said, EDRA, go do this. So watch it here in our lead story tonight, Kevin Pereira has lost his freaking mind.

Gavin Purcell: The man many described as a eccentric genius has again started talking about feet. What I know. Okay. That's fake news. Fake news. True news. Fake, true fake news. Not, but so look at, so if you zoom in on that, Kev Yeah. You know, it's not perfect, but look at the mouth. Right. It actually kind of does go along pretty well with it.

Gavin Purcell: And, and I gave it a smiling face to start with. It'd [00:37:00] probably be better if I gave it a flat face without it smiling, but it does do a good job of a non-human face lip sync there. These models sometimes struggle if you start with an open mouth or a big smile. It struggles to do the lip, the mouths closed.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. But ironically, if you start with a closed mouth, it can open it. Okay. Yeah. Um, I see, like, I'm looking at like, there's a couple frames where the hands get a little like blurry and digitized, but it is, it looks like it's fairly properly animating. The reflections in the desk as well as the way the tie and the clothing, uh, seems to reflect.

Gavin Purcell: Like, this is, this is good. This is, it's really a step up. It's a step up from, and I think again. Lip sync is a real legitimate use case for a lot of this stuff. And we've talked about AI movies and all these really interesting AI studios, um, there. But this is something that is a tool that is needed for this space.

Gavin Purcell: If you wanna do actual animated AI stuff and what's cool about this tool, you can move to the side or you can do stuff in different directions. Mm-hmm. Um, by the way, I do wanna shout out as we have done a thousand times in the show. If you are not watching what neural vis is doing [00:38:00] on YouTube or the best on TikTok, you must.

Gavin Purcell: He has overtaken TikTok now and smartly. Um, I think we started it, Kevin, I'm not gonna take credit, but we made our baby Joe Rogan podcast. He started to make fake podcast clips. With his character, Tiggy Gibbs, which you should a hundred percent watch, but now he's started even further. He's smartly taking formats.

Gavin Purcell: Where, do you know those man on the street interviews that you, street people do? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, it's amazing. Like popular Mimi tropes and applying them to the world. And what I love is that if you really dive into, uh, neural visits stuff, it's all an integrated world. So characters will pop up.

Gavin Purcell: Yes, there's references to it all. It's all like this weird alternate alien dimension. It's super, super enjoyable and love that he's hitting millions of views. Yeah. And so I mentioned him because he was one of the early users of the old Hera and I'm sure is starting to play around with this new one. So again, if you wanna create some sort of interesting, uh, speaking, this is the way to do it.

Gavin Purcell: And Neural viz particularly uses a lot of weird looking aliens that he definitely needs this sort of tool to do it with. Um, I wanna shout out a new tool that was released today as well, [00:39:00] Gavin, but it's a shout out and a, and a shade. It's like a ooh shout. It's a shout out. And some shade. Shade. I'm pointing to it, but I'm wagging that finger at you.

Gavin Purcell: Quander ai. Gavin, I don't know if you've seen any of Yeah, I saw this tweet. It was like a real, like, you can prompt a one minute movie or you can prompt a full movie by nothing. Or it was a very like, hype beasty type of tweet. I'm gonna try to send you a video of what I did with it this morning. Um, I, uh, told it to give me a, uh, a, a script 'cause you can, you can basically create one minute videos, gav there, you can do 16 by nine or nine by 16.

Gavin Purcell: So whatever aspect ratio you want. Um, there's some suggested templates for what types of videos you can make, but I told it to give me a romantic montage, uh Okay. In an ad, like in a commercial, uh, thing, using that template about Guy FII falling in love with an anthropomorphic hotdog. So, oh, okay. It immediately fun.

Gavin Purcell: The me immediately. It does this wizard like onboarding process. And so you get a script editor where it bounced [00:40:00] out a script, Gavin, which has like it says, narrator in a world where flavor meets friendship. And then Guy FII steps out of the car in slow motion sunglasses gleaming beside him, and anthropomorphic hotdog and sunglasses and tiny flip flops emerges.

Gavin Purcell: Then it has them, like it says, guy, guy FI's dialogue is ready for the most bomb.com getaway of your life, buddy. Okay. And it like, and listen, there's some dialogue not far off, not that far off maybe. Then you click next and it gives you style selection, realistic anime film bricks, which is Lego. Oh, I know where cyber punk this is going.

Gavin Purcell: Then you can approve the style and you go that in your video. I know where this is going. Yeah, and then you go, okay, now that it, then it spits out characters based off the script and. By the way, the interface, like it's, it, we know that these tools exist, right? We cover them all the time. They're bolting together a bunch of different tools and techniques in a way that, that, by the way, is, is fairly seamless.

Gavin Purcell: So yeah, you can choose the narrator voice, you can modify it. It then gives you your characters, [00:41:00] which there's key art for Guy fii and for the hot dog, it's a good anthropomorphic hotdog, like s solid little arms, a, a nice little smiley face foot flux, which it's not easy to do. That's not necessarily easy to do.

Gavin Purcell: No. And you can go in and again, you can re-roll the character. You can edit the description. Okay, nice. Then you can choose your locations and it, and it's generating locations for each and the objects are missing. So I went in and I changed an umbrella drink to a jug of donkey sauce Caven. Okay. Which I did not know you were experimenting with donkey sauce, but when I click generate it, actually put the words donkey sauce on a glass jug with this weird, it's a brown sludge.

Gavin Purcell: We don't have to get into that, but it is, I also generated a hot dog jet ski instead of a regular jet ski. All of this stuff, if you're watching the video version, it is actually surprisingly good. Yeah. And now I'm like, I can't wait to watch the video. I. Which is when Gavin, it told me I could become my own movie studio and unleash my creativity and share my unique stories with the world effortlessly, Gavin, for [00:42:00] the low, low price of $19 a month if I buy a subscription.

Gavin Purcell: Yes, yes, yes. And uh, by the way, this is so funny. You had this experience with this, so, oh, we may never know because like we've talked about this show before, how we have a bajillion subscriptions for this already and like it really does take a while to get there. There is something to be said right now for these tools that are subscription based, but don't let you try them just to devs out there.

Gavin Purcell: I need to try something before I'm going to put my credit card out there. And I know a lot of people are trying to like make these subscriptions work and there's a lot of conversation on X about like, how do I get my monthly a RR up and how do I get that's a, you know, a recurring revenue. You must let me try or I will not buy.

Gavin Purcell: And I think this is probably the case for the majority of the world at large. And in this instance, this is, goes back to our conversation earlier, Kevin. It's like. What they've already done here probably cost them, I don't know, five bucks per user to go through this process. I was generating characters and scenes and playing these like, you know, narrator [00:43:00] voices and stuff.

Gavin Purcell: Like I, I'm sure it was costing and, and it's tough 'cause you don't wanna, like, as much as I say I'm gonna wag my finger or shade the developers, like I, I don't know how well funded if at all this company is Gavin. Yeah. And it's like, of course it's tough to do these things and it can be expensive, but as the user, just like you said, a lot of the tools allow me to try before I buy.

Gavin Purcell: And what you did was like, you trapped me in this funnel. Yes. Right. And had me go through this stuff and I'm excited to pull the handle now and see what the generation looks like. And I got to that, that phase and you know, maybe some users will feel invested and go, okay, I'll give you the. $20 or buy a, I'll buy a pack of compute for $10 and see what that looks like.

Gavin Purcell: But that this is the, this is the tough push and pull of, I know it costs you money, but also there's an expectation that if I spent the time and energy to get this far in your pipeline, you're gonna let me get at least one generation out of it. Yeah. And, and then it becomes a bad product, right? Like this is no shade against these people.

Gavin Purcell: I don't know them, but also like it's a bad experience. Yeah, yeah. A bad experience. You don't get the user to try it. Now I [00:44:00] maybe it comes out and it's like a piece of crap and we don't know that for sure. But if it comes out and it's really good, there's a conversion there that can happen from a business standpoint.

Gavin Purcell: But again, this is like the business model of these startups now is really tricky because yeah, as Kevin and I know we've been doing business models for our startup, you must pay for every time somebody interacts and, and when you are looking at these larger companies, they are hemorrhaging money in part because of that.

Gavin Purcell: But also I. The larger companies own the models, right? So they can give themselves the cheapest possible deal for themselves, right? But they are gonna charge market rates across the board for everyone else. Well, and look, you know, put up or shut up Gavin free AI product is impossible to make unless, unless it is a weekly newsletter from US, AI for Humans and the Weekly Newsletter.

Gavin Purcell: You got it buddy. Please go subscribe to our newsletter. It's on our website at AI for Humans Show. Every week we try to dive into whatever the interesting story is and give you some really interesting creative tools to play with too. So it's like a mini version of our show that comes out on Tuesdays in your email.

Gavin Purcell: Go grab it. [00:45:00] And Kev, one thing I do wanna talk about that I think we talked about in that, if not, we'll talk about it next week. Was this really interesting workflow that a lot of people are doing where it takes, it takes something through to Magnifi, which is like anez or, or a style transfer type of of thing, which you can also find open source for.

Gavin Purcell: And then uses runway's first frame scenario, which we talked about last week to make this kind of very cool look. And in this instance, uh, what Roar Fly, did Roar fly is he took Claude and made a fly over 3D model of a mountain and then actually used this workflow to make this really very cool looking, right.

Gavin Purcell: Um, uh, cinematic shot of a mountain. Of a house. Of a mountain, which is crazy. So again, he's using Claude, he's using a text-based. Chat interface and asking it to generate a castle out of blocky primitive shapes. And it does. And then he goes back and makes little tweaks. There were trees. He had to remove the trees.

Gavin Purcell: And so he gets this almost like Mario 64 beta version of a castle on a hill. Yeah. He makes it look like this gorgeous [00:46:00] RA palace on a hill, but it's just a still Gavin. That's not dynamic. Right. So then he takes that. It puts it into runway and animates it, and then suddenly he image transfers it, which is what we talked about last week.

Gavin Purcell: If you wanna hear specifically, go back and check that out. He takes that and starts to really make this really unique shot. It's a shot for a film. And, you know, you talk about with, uh, 3D films, or sorry, you talk about with films, about how people do like graphics work for wide open vistas. This is a fast way to get to those kind of shots.

Gavin Purcell: Like you can imagine, like if you had like a sweeping shot of a, a epic battlefield in some form, you could use Claude to create kind of like a very rough sort of scenario for that, and then use these steps along the way to make it much faster and much easier than you would for a normal giant shot. So, yeah, it's a very interesting pipeline.

Gavin Purcell: Anybody can try it essentially and play around with it. There are open source ways to do this, but if you wanna link to the tweet, it'll be in the old show notes, so please check that out. But that was kind of a, [00:47:00] we kind of jumped the gun a little bit, Gavin, because that was one of those things that stops us dead in our tracks and makes us say, Hey.

Gavin Purcell: I see what you did there. I see what you did there. Sometimes ya rolling without a care. Then suddenly you stop and shout.

Gavin Purcell: All right, Kev, we have two quick robot updates. These are both really interesting. First and foremost, our friends at the Humanoid Hub, which is a great follow on Twitter. They shot out a bunch of videos of robots. They have this great video of a robot that at first doesn't seem that exciting, but if you stick with it for just a little while, you get to see.

Gavin Purcell: Robot on hoverboard. And to me, Kevin, this is the robots finally getting to have some fun in their lives. They're not just out there, uh, k kung fu kicking or getting pushed over. They're, they're a little scooter and then they're on a hoverboard, which to me is perfect, dude. They're, they are one firmware update away from that robot knowing how to vape.[00:48:00]

Gavin Purcell: And the moment it does, it can hop on the hoverboard and steal my wife and there's nothing I can do about it. I'll be just to be, yeah, this is from a GI bot or Aggie bots Linge X two robot, and it supposedly can ride a scooter, a hoverboard, and a self-driving bike. I mean a self-driving bike who couldn't ride that.

Gavin Purcell: But the scooter and hoverboard are pretty interesting to me in some form. But the, well, it helps on a self-balancing bike. I mean, yeah. Yes. But then the fact that it can pilot it around, I think it's amazing. And again, it can take my wife. Then Kevin, speaking of taking your wife, what does your wife think about long distance runners?

Gavin Purcell: Is she, is she hot for them? She's hot for anything. That is not me. Kevin, we've discussed this offline and I'd rather you not drag it here. I'm in a very sensitive place. Engine AI releases video and many times people always say, these videos look fake. They look fake. They look fake. In this instance, I definitely felt at one point, first this might've have been the case.

Gavin Purcell: This is a, a humanoid robot running a what looks like it was like a long distance marathon run. It's running in a, with a, sitting in the background and And they turned it [00:49:00] on. Steven Segal basically. Yeah. Yes, exactly. It's like the clumping of the tweets and the arms are moving in. Such a funny way. What I love played the audio of this, just the, just listen to the audio of the clomping feet.

Gavin Purcell: Kevin, that's the sound you hear when you're running from the robot and it's got a gun and it's pointed at you and you got Yeah. You are like, I didn't mean to kick you, I didn't mean to hit you with the stick. I'm so sorry. Mr. Robot. That's our, that's our 2040 world. Oh my God. Yeah. That's me on the treadmill at Orange Theory.

Gavin Purcell: That's my gate. Just clomping about. Um, look, it's, I'm not convinced it's real. You're not. I'm it, you're not convinced. This one's real. That's interesting. I don't wanna, you think it might be fake? Oh, guys, I see what you're saying. We've got some other great stuff to go through. Speaking of robotic workflows, this is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while.

Gavin Purcell: This is factorial. If you know that game, you may be obsessed with it. I tried it for a while. It was almost like too complicated for me. It's a, it is a game where you put together like a factory and [00:50:00] it gets very dense very fast. So if you are a. Uh, are, uh, like a Civilization fan or you like those kind of games, this is like a game for you where it's really systems based in a specific way.

Gavin Purcell: Uh, person has basically created a factorial benchmark, which means that he's using AI agents to play this game. And as you can imagine with anything that has a knowledge tree, you know, if you've played civilization, you know, like you get one thing and it branches off and you can get one or these three things and it gets more and more complicated.

Gavin Purcell: Factorial is like one of the most complicated games in the world in that way. And what's interesting is seeing these different ais and how far they got into it. And it sounds like Claude, as we know, Claude was playing Pokemon has gotten the farthest and it does not surprise me 'cause it's very good at this sort of, uh, thinking through stuff.

Gavin Purcell: But it is gonna be something interesting to watch because all of them get stopped relatively quickly. But again, just a shout out, this guy Jack Hopkins, and it's a GitHub page that he published with this, with this up there. He's gonna update it over time. You get to see like, okay, how did it get certain resources?

Gavin Purcell: How far did it get in the, in the tech [00:51:00] tree? To me, it's just a cool way of doing a new sort of benchmark with something that we know and have used. And if you're a robot out there and you can play factorial and you could, I smelt things and, and I don't know, generate plastic, whatever some of the benchmarks were.

Gavin Purcell: What's crazy, Gavin, is that. You can take my wife. Please take my wife please. Cl cl cl cl. That's the sound of the back coming for your wife's coming, right? We have to talk. Is is it CCO or coco? I, no, CCO is me with the fuck. You're, you're the cco. Uh, Paul, uh, Paul Trio, uh, traditional 2D animation meets the bleeding edge of experimental techniques.

Gavin Purcell: This was a tweet that, um, has thousands of views and needs to have. Tens of thousands more. He was a writer director on a short, and it is a beautiful breakdown Yeah. Of how talented artists wielding AI powered tools can dramatically increase their output [00:52:00] and, uh, experiment and, and even the quality of product in some ways.

Gavin Purcell: And, and this to me is like the answer to everybody who shouts. There was a thing that was going viral this morning as of the recording, where someone took a screen grab of credits for a movie or a game and it said a IR and everybody's like, boo, his, it's stolen, it's this. And I'm like, just send this link to anyone and your life that says all I stolen art of this.

Gavin Purcell: The other, I'm not talking about. Washing away the original sint of the training data. But I'm talking about the reality that we are in now and going to be way further in in the very near future that talented artists are going to unlock new levels of creativity. And this video shows exactly that. Yeah, I actually emailed back and forth a little bit with Paul 'cause I was such a fan of it.

Gavin Purcell: And you know, Paul actually was one of the original kind of artists who did some SOA stuff. You remember that SOA shot that's on a school bus, like he did that. Yeah. And a couple other things. So you really do, if you are interested in AI video, you should really watch this video. 'cause it is not just a normal breakdown or a walkthrough.

Gavin Purcell: Like Paul talks about how they made a 3D [00:53:00] world basically to create some of these shots and how. The original art that was created by the artist is used to make new Lauras for other characters in the world. That was one of the most interesting things is basically they created a Laura, which you, if you, we haven't said that for a while, but if you're not familiar, a Laura is a small training data set of a specific type of art that then you can get the machines to kind of produce versions of that.

Gavin Purcell: They used the Laura to create background characters based on the main characters that exist, so please go watch this. It is one of the best videos I've seen that shows how important art plus AI can be a real difference. Yeah, agreed. Now I have not played Turing Twist yet. Gavin, am I going to love this or hate this?

Gavin Purcell: So this game is a, is a kind of a weird one-off thing. It's a vibe code game, I think. But what I want everybody to be aware of here is the Turing test. Obviously, as we've talked on the show before, is like the original Turing test by Alan Turing was a person talks to both a computer and a person, and the Turing test would be solved if they couldn't tell the [00:54:00] difference, right?

Gavin Purcell: This flips that on the head a little bit. You are the human, but you have to pretend to be a computer and you're in a room with a certain amount of other AI agents that are trying to figure out who in the room is ai. So you have to speak enough like an AI and try to pretend to be an ai. And it is Kevin, such a fascinating thing to try it as a live demo.

Gavin Purcell: You only get a couple times because again, I think it's costing the guy that made it a fair amount of money, but you should try it. I think it's super interesting to kind of, and and what's interesting is like you'll see like certain of the agents that he's put in here have voices, but you try to replicate what they do and they find out very quickly.

Gavin Purcell: Like, I lost in the very first round immediately. 'cause I couldn't speak enough like an ai. Were you playing against Tito or Zane? I think Tito was one of the guys. I, I played with three people. I played us, one of them was trying Titos, a rookie trying. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you see what it is though, right?

Gavin Purcell: It's almost like among us, but like reversed in a weird way. That's fun. No. What, what a fun concept. That's very cool. I will definitely give this, [00:55:00] uh, a try. Um, and it, it, uh, really shades my AI vibe, coding efforts, Gavin, which you're going to try. Surprise, surprise. That's fantastic. So finally, before we move on to what we do with AI this week, uh, there's just a dumb, fun video.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. And I love when people just do stuff that's surprising. This person took shots of the Academy Awards, uh, where Conan and other people were presenting literally just shots of them presenting and then used an AI video tool to put animals on their shoulder. So you have five or six shots of famous people.

Gavin Purcell: Conan, um, uh, uh, Oppenheimer Star. And what's Oppenheimer Star now? What's his name? I just call him Oppenheimer Star. What the hell is his name now? I can't remember. This is where we need ai. Kevin. I need an instant database. Check something like that name. Let's say, what is it? Don't don't Google it. Why?

Gavin Purcell: Wait is yes. I'm glad I'm making way. I'm giving you Spank. I know, because I love, it's in my brain. Oh, silly. And Murphy. Yes. Goddamnit. You got there. Oh, that was like a, an a computer use agent making its way [00:56:00] to the answer. And I think you still beat open ai. Good job, buddy. Right? Probably. Anyway, go watch this video.

Gavin Purcell: It's super fun. All right, before we jump to what you made, I have one very fast thing that I wanted shout out because sometimes. AI video fails, do not get enough love. And I had one of my favorite AI video fails of all time come out this week. Uh, I tried to use, I think it was runway, and this is not shared against runway.

Gavin Purcell: It's a very complicated scene. I tried to use a video to video transfer of the shot from Jurassic Park where Sam Neil and Laura Dur first see the, the dinosaurs and they like, they're in the Jeep and they turn. I tried to make it, I tried to make an anime version of that. And you've seen this. Just describe a little bit about, to the people listening, but also the people watching, like what you see in this video, which is what makes it so fun.

Gavin Purcell: If you don't know the scene, it's whether they're in a Jeep and they stand up and there's a dramatic eyeglass removal, and then the head turn towards the dinosaurs as they see them in the park for the first time. You did a, is it a Naruto anime style? Flip is, I mean, I just said anime, so Okay. Clearly it took some naruto elements in there.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. Um, but you see, [00:57:00] you see a character removed, like a cowboy hat, uh, with a band on it from within a Jeep revealing. Another cap beneath it, which is great. Yes. Uh, then you watch them kind of like eyeing with their glasses on. They stand up, they get out of the jeep, they do look anime style, like I'll give them that.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. The, the glasses get removed and it's the meme of too many glasses. 'cause Yeah, there's another pair of sunglasses right beneath it. Um, and then a playing with what looks like a steering wheel. Frisbee in a Jeep. Yep, that's exactly right. I don't know, I don't know what that's about, but it looks like they're about to play an ultimate frizz game and.

Gavin Purcell: And then, I don't know. And then like a human being is a dinosaur. Like, well, that's about the background. That's my favorite part about this is in the uploaded clip there's a shot of the brontosaurus, which is the big brontosaurus. And if you just find the frame for a couple seconds, it's just, there's twice at a, there's twice at a brontosaurus looking thing shows up with the anime guy's head.

Gavin Purcell: Anyway, these are always fun. I, if you share these with us, we will appreciate them. I know so many people go through AI video [00:58:00] generations. I think there needs to be a better shout out for ai. Video fails. We need a graveyard in our discord for these. Yes. 'cause they can all rest in power with us. We love broken AI videos.

Gavin Purcell: Now what? Tell me what you did. You made this game. I wanna hear about that. So I don't know anything about this out there, so I'm very excited to see what this is. Gavin. Gavin, it was 10 o'clock last night. And I remember that we have a hundredth episode coming up and I was like, Hmm, what's something special I could make for my special boy?

Gavin Purcell: Oh, okay. Because that's what you are in my life. Gavin, are you familiar with the eat hot chip meme? Yes. Yeah, I've seen the one that, uh, Shaq did and it's always fun, right? Where there's one, it's, it is a company called like Paki something or something like that. It's a single chip in a bag. Oh, that's the chip challenge.

Gavin Purcell: That is where like you try to eat the spicy chip. Oh, that's a different thing. No, I dunno. The hot chip bean, the, the original one is not exactly appropriate, but I will say that the, around 2019, the version that caught on that, that I giggle about all the time that April quotes my wife, she quotes, uh, before she leaves me for robots and my friend group mentions is that it's any female born after 1993 can't cook.

Gavin Purcell: All they know is McDonald's charge [00:59:00] their phone. Twerk, be bisexual, eat hot, chip and lie. That's the text. I see. So it's, it's a, it is a copy pasta that has become a, a meme into itself. I see what you're saying. A hundred percent. It is an enjoyable, uh, quote. And just to be clear, for the world at large, this is not Kevin's beliefs.

Gavin Purcell: He is calling out a meme from 2019. Just wanna make sure everybody knows that the, the robots know that for the future. That's all I wanna know. Um, thank you for clarifying and saying me. I realize now maybe this doesn't belong on the show. It's a silly meme to the point, like whenever I do, um, something dumb, which is fairly often, April will look at me and say something like, uh, you should charge your phone.

Gavin Purcell: Or Why aren't you, you should just eat hot chip. Right, right. And that's the go back and forth of like, we don't know anything. We can't do anything. We just eat hot, chip and lie and we twerk. Okay. Well I took the meme, Gavin and I gave it to Claude 3.7 and I said. This needs to be a web game. And I said, let's create mini games for all of the things that any female born after 1993 can't do.

Gavin Purcell: Okay. Again, not my belief or opinion, but this is the popular copy pasta. And so it [01:00:00] created the eat hot chip game, Gavin. Okay. So should I select female gender in 1993? And on? Is, is that what we're doing here? Well, that's, it's the only thing you can select to play the hot chip challenge because you have to be a female born after 1993.

Gavin Purcell: Okay. All right. So now I, the game, I see a screen here which has, it says charge phone. Oh, is this kind of like that guy? It's like a cookie I made the other day where it's like. It. New things will show up the more you do stuff. So it's like a cookie clicker and that your, uh, your phone is constantly losing charge.

Gavin Purcell: So you have to click the button to charge your phone, but okay. Random challenges will appear that are seen Oh yeah. Cool. After the meme. So it might pop up with what do you know? And forced to mindset. Forced to cook. I had to force to cook something. Oh yeah. What do you know? Select the correct option below.

Gavin Purcell: Dancing with ghost. Cooking, gaming, practicing, interact. Interpretive screening. No. Interdimensional Yoga. According to me. How goes for, you know, nothing. You better get more. You better click more. Oh my God. Because the only thing you know is McDonald's. Gavin, you have to click McDonald's. I see it. [01:01:00] I got it.

Gavin Purcell: I clicked it. Okay. I'm good. Oh, this is really fun, Kev. I like this idea. Like, it's basically, so you've basically vibe coded a cookie clicker with a bunch of really interesting, um, with a bunch of interesting, like yes. Cultural meme stuff. So let's talk quickly about what went into this, because the game is also super fun.

Gavin Purcell: But I could also see somebody like seeing this being like, oh, I see that thing out. I would wanna make one about like. And I wanna make one about Bob in my office who's always doing the dumb stuff, right? Because that, that is the world we're talking about. We talked about how Suno allows you to make those songs about your friends.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. Now you're able to like, make a game about your friends. Sure. So tell, tell us how you did this. Yeah. So here's what's nutty. I mean, I fed it, the, the meme itself, the text, and I explained the meme, right? Yeah. And then I said I wanna make a series of mini games. I did give it ideas for what some of the mini games could be like boxes that float around, blah, blah, blah.

Gavin Purcell: I explained the core concept of the game. There is a boss battle. That appears in the game. If you manage to, uh, to play it for a minute, in like 15 seconds, a boss battle will appear. Um, and I gave it some ideas for that. But then Gavin, the, the most [01:02:00] insane part is that I said use emojis for graphics so I don't have to generate any graphics.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. I want you to use programmatic sound. So there are weird sound effects in the game. And my music, it sounds pretty good actually. Actually. Especially for the boss battle. Yeah. Claude came up with all of that. Wow. And the original version of the, I said, I said go with like Windows 3.1 meets a Geocity website.

Gavin Purcell: Have fun, go nuts. Wow. The original version of the game worked. You know, I had to go back and forth with it and say, okay, fix this, fix that. There's a bug here. This doesn't work. Uh, it, it coded everything. And then eventually I said, this isn't crazy enough. Go nuts. Go wild. Have a good time. And when you get to the boss battle, I.

Gavin Purcell: It's like full on crazy, like things slamming on the screen, full animations, wild sound effects. It's actually like, what was so bizarre is that like I as the coder, as the creator of the game had no idea what it even was. And I got to be surprised every time I would run this thing amazing when it would actually work.

Gavin Purcell: It, it surprised me. It wrote all of the text, it wrote [01:03:00] all of the descriptions. There's a mini game where you have to say like, what do you know? And you have to click more until you find McDonald's. 'cause that's all you know is McDonald's. And it wrote all of the weird like astral yoga and like you only know vegan yoga.

Gavin Purcell: Oh, that's it. Wrote all those on own, all that. All of that. Wow. It did all the animations, it made all of the sound effects. So it was a weird kind of vibe coded game that I'm, yeah, I'll make it available like it's hosted publicly now, so I'll just make it available. Yeah. That's awesome. People to try it.

Gavin Purcell: What, how much time would you say you put into it? Like, I'm just curious, I know I'm, this is not trying to hype anything up, but I'm just curious to know when people at home might wanna know is like, too much time. When did this take kinda start to finish too much time? It was about, it was about three and a half hours start to finish.

Gavin Purcell: Okay. So that's not nothing. Right. But it, but also like it's, it's literally half of a workday. Right. For a game that is valuable in some form. Right. To somebody. Uh, well I'll ask this Gavin. Um, without ai, could you make this game? Oh, without ai, absolutely not. Right? Neither. Neither. There's no way I can make that game.

Kevin Pereiral: No way. No way. And even with ai, I have a [01:04:00] vague understanding of how the systems work. Yeah. Like that is me so like to go, oh, it took three hours. Yeah. I spent a little too much time on the dumb game. Yeah. Yeah. But the fact that it could be made is insane. And again, with after everything you and I have talked about for the last Lord knows how long this episode will be once cut down.

Gavin Purcell: Yeah. Like everybody should know like, oh, it is possible. Yeah, you can do it. You might have to slam your head against the keyboard for a few hours, but you can make something. And by the way, six months from now, I. Gonna be even easier. Yeah. Like literally you are, this comes out on Thursday morning. If you have a normal job, which I'm sure most of you people do, like spend three to five hours on this Saturday, try this.

Gavin Purcell: Like it is, there's a lot of new, um, uh, ways to look at this. Uh, Matthew Berman, who's a great, uh, YouTuber has a very good video that he talks about vibing, uh, vibe coding a game from scratch. And like, oh, I also wanna shout out Andrew Chen, who runs the A 16 Z um, uh, VC fund. Yes. Wrote a really awesome long, uh, newsletter on Substack, but it's free to look at where it talks about how vibe [01:05:00] coding might change the games business.

Gavin Purcell: Also, it talks about and has some examples of good vibe coded games. Really worth looking at that. So if you have a few seconds, read that first. Watch Matthew's video first and then just dive in. 'cause it is not impossible. Like Kevin, to Kevin's point, Kevin is technical, but I know what he did here and I can do this too.

Gavin Purcell: The only hard part, it probably ends up being. The deploying part, but even that you can just ask Claude about and so forth. That's, I literally asked chat GPT, what would be, I was told it to go browse the web and find me the best, cheapest services to deploy something like this. I'm on a $5 free trial of a service called Railway, which makes it, that's amazing.

Gavin Purcell: One click to deploy and that's, yeah. What you're seeing's I did. Now that's crazy. It's, um, it's really, it's, it's, it's a wild, wild time. There's never been a better time to be a quote unquote creative, because if you look at this meme and maybe you're offended or maybe you're just like rolling your eyes 'cause you're like, wow, you wasted three hours on this.

Gavin Purcell: It's like, well, but what, what can you make? What do you wanna make? And that I, I, I, I kind, I do. So please make something [01:06:00] and share it with us. In the discord. Do way better. Make it way better. Make your own graphics, make your own sound effects. Take the time and care, but like you will gain so much from just interacting with these new tools.

Gavin Purcell: This is the future. So hop on board the old train Choo. Choo Choo everybody. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye bye.