Mysterious AI Shocks The Internet, Apple’s AI Chip Rumors & Chat with Pirate Software | Ep55

Beemop's Copy of AI4H EP055
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[00:00:00] 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: We have got a massive AI for Humans episode for all of you today, including updates on a mysterious and shockingly powerful AI that crept its way onto the internet, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: It might be GPT 5, Kevin.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: It 5, Gavin?,

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Apple is moving up their timeline on AI. Its iPad event that is happening as soon as next week. We may learn more about how Apple AI plans are going to affect the rest of us.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And we're gonna chat with one of the biggest streamers in the game, Thor, aka Pirate Software, is here today to talk AI, indie gaming, and maybe even ferrets. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Plus, China has a Sora AI video competitor. But is it any good, Gavin?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Not really in my mind. No, I shouldn't say that. It's fine. It's fine.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: No, you want to tell them to wait to tune in and find out. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Wait to tune in to find out. It's not that good. But this is. It's AI for Humans. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Welcome, welcome, [00:01:00] welcome everybody to AI for Humans, your weekly guide to the wonderful and wild world of generative AI. We are here to demystify all the AI tools, AI news, and all the other AI stuff that's happening across the way for me, across the country for me, is Kevin Pereira. Kevin, how are you today?

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I am so far from you, Gavin, and , my sense of longing is growing with the geographical distance. We are both, remote boys today, doing the

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: best that we can, , with the, uh, setups that we have. And, if that wasn't pathetic enough, wait till you see what I say next. Please. Like and subscribe, click the button, hit the bell, give us a thumbs up, engage on whatever platform that you are.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: We ask you each and every week and each and every week. Some of you actually do and we appreciate it because it's the only way we grow this thing. So please, tell somebody about our podcast if you dig it. And if you like anything that we say today at any point, smack a subscribe, click a heart, do a thumbs up, engage. Was that enough, Gavin?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Leave us a five star review. on Apple Podcasts, and we will read it at the end of the [00:02:00] show. , hopefully some of you people may be joining us from Kevin Rose's podcast, which I think, uh, came out yesterday. We are so excited to have y'all here, and 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: were great. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: here. It is time.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Oh, you were great. No, really, you were great, 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Thank you. Thank you. And Kevin Rose was there.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Kevin Rose is fine. He was fine. We love, we love Kevin Rose. We love 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: We love 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: let's get into it, Kevin. Kevin, it's time for the news.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Let's take a

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: big old Scrooge McDuck dive into the news vault.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: The big story this week is kind of a strange one. So there is a mysterious LLM model and AI model, which is out there, kind of got released that nobody knows where it came from, which is a little we'll get into this. Why this is weird. It is called GPT to dash chat bot. And, you know, this might not be that big of a [00:03:00] deal if it came out and it was like as good as like, say, I don't know, llama two or something like that.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: But the funniest thing is, Kevin. It is really good. In fact, a lot of people are saying that it can do things better than GPT 4, which, you know, we've talked about Lama 3, Opus, all these other, uh, LMs that have come out from these large companies haven't been able to beat GPT 4, and this model, this mystery model seems to be doing stuff almost as well as GPT Did you 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: This is so weird. it is so weird. So if you're not tapped into this scene or this story, there is a website that is a basically a chatbot arena, and it lets you sample all these different models, these are , the core trainings that power chatbot experiences. If you will, I'm distilling broadly here, but it's an arena that lets you try them all out, , try the same prompts, see which one gives you the most interesting replies and it lets you rank them, , and rate them.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And so you can pit them against each other. And just like Gavin said, this thing labeled [00:04:00] GPT 2, which by the way, we're already at 4. 5, if you're following proper versioning numbers, but this thing labeled GPT 2 just gets kind of quietly released and everybody's like, Oh, what is this? And they're poking and prodding at it and finding that it's. Crazy capable. It is solving like Olympia level math problems. It can draw complex ASCII and SVG art like using math to basically to draw, it can code, it can remember, it seems to be able to reason. And this isn't the kind of thing that usually comes from a basement hacker out of nowhere overnight. This is performing with the top best in class models. So Gavin. Who did it? Why did they do it? How did they do it? Where? Well, we kind of answered the where. I'm trying to go through all the things in like fourth grade. The who, what, where. We already said when

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: and yeah, so why and how and who.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Well, I hate to tell everybody, this was me. I, I released this. If you didn't know, learning all the stuff you've learned on this show, I am the [00:05:00] genius that made that. Didn't really, of course not. , no one, this is what's so fascinating about the story, Kev, is that nobody really knows.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: There have been a few interesting kind of like, Tip of the hats to different things. Uh, Sam Altman was clearly aware this was going on and there is a theory out there, which is a really interesting theory that I want to shout out Al B Fresco, who has said that that's possible. This is his theory that GP two chat bot is literally open a eyes GPT two, which is, you know, two generations back, which if that was not a very good chat bot model.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: But fine tuned with modern assistant data sets. So the theory here is that they've taken an old trained model and then updated it with modern data sets. And if that is the case, that is a really, really big deal to talk about what modern training can do, what you could do and what you could update, because that just means we are probably going to accelerate faster.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And the reason I brought this theory up is because Sam Altman himself tweeted while this was going on. He said [00:06:00] specifically. I do have a soft spot for GPT 2 now, whether or not that's an admission of this, we probably isn't, it is probably Sam using his master level trolling ability to try to get people spun up about it.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: But we don't know. We don't know what this is, where it comes from. I have a personal theory, Kevin, that maybe this is the The first instance of this is gonna sound insane, and it probably is. This is my own conspiracy theory. There's always been this talk in the world of AI about an AI spinning up its own thing, right?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: That it eventually would be able to train itself and 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: this is the holy grail that it could improve itself.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: it.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: doesn't require human beings

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: to give reinforcement and feedback. So you think GPT 4 was told to improve GPT 2 and these are its learnings?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Yes, that's exactly right. I think this is the older model telling the toddler model here. I want to help you learn it. It got it right up and we're all screwed. So just remember that robots. If you're out there in the year 2032, which is [00:07:00] not very far away and you're looking down on the humans to save, save the person that figured it out first.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Save me. I don't 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: care about on, he cracked the code. Give him a cookie in his human cage. Just flick some crumbs at him while he's behind those laser bars. GPT 2, as of recording, which, not to talk too much about how this sausage is made, but we usually record early on Tuesdays, , gp22chatbot is currently unavailable

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: on the arena website and it says see our model evaluation policy and when you dive into the policy it's a whole bunch about transparency and ethics and a whole way we don't know exactly what was violated by this model but The theory that I saw, was that this might be a GPT 2, but not necessarily a fine tune.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: This might be the Q star aspect

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Oh, 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: has alluded to. This is something that you and I have talked about on the podcast before, but if you don't know, Q star in broad strokes was adding, , A chain of thought or reasoning into a model. So basically [00:08:00] when you ask a question right now, the AI just needs to, in one shot, give you the response and give you the answer and there you go.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Whereas when it's told to take it step by step and reason its way through it, especially with math or logic puzzles, going line by line and saying it does this make sense and if it does not make sense, redo it until it makes sense. And then does the whole thing make sense, adding that step by step reasoning, giving the language model, , a scratch pad, if you will, so that as it goes through the problem, it can be reasoning. If this, Gavin, is just GPT 2 with Q star, That makes me tingle in places that I have not felt sensations since Oh,

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Let's just say a long time, Gavin. It's been a while since I've been alive there, buddy. Do you get

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: what I'm saying, Gavin?

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Do you understand what I'm talking about? Do you think the listeners get what I'm talking

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: about? Should I

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: describe it? Should I draw it? Let me put it on the screen! No, what I'm saying is, like, think about that. If just [00:09:00] adding Step by step reasoning to an ancient old model by today's standards makes it perform this well. What happens if you apply it to today's model and that discussion is taking place and people are saying well that would require so much compute because you're taking this massive powerful model and saying put extra thought into every step of the process. But I love hockey stick growth, Gavin. I love us having more computers online and maybe solving some energy hiccups along the way. So we have the actual raw energy to power all this, because that is a hurdle that we can leap if we have line of sight with the technology, we know that we can throw more compute at it and more power at it to unlock something. truly super intelligent.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: and that could explain the whatever it was. 200 billion computer center that open AI and Microsoft are gonna are gonna build 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: right there. Secret AI the Stargate all of this stuff points in the right direction, but it is one of those really interesting times when you just. It surprised a lot of people in the AI [00:10:00] space.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Something kind of came out of the blue. You don't often get real shocks to the system in the AI world that are real. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: The other thing that's been happening this week, that's the other big story is, you know, Is Apple might shock people as well coming up soon. So Apple has been rumored for a while to be working on a pretty deep AI integration, , both into Siri and to other stuff that we may not know. There's been a lot of rumors going around about partnerships with Google, maybe with open AI to kind of power some of this, but the new rumor that just came out is that we expected this all to come down around WWDC, which is June's event when they often introduce new.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Operating systems. They often introduce new hardware there, but there's an Apple iPad event happening next week. I think it's a week from today, and supposedly, there is going to be a new top of the line iPad that may even have new Apple silicon in it, Kevin, that is specifically designed for AI.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And what will be interesting to me to see if Apple comes out with an AI [00:11:00] centric on engine chip that is designed to do a lot of this AI processing, I feel like again, you talk about the hockey stick growth.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: . Yeah. Getting that tool into the hands of Apple users at scale is going to completely change how people view AI. This feels like we're at another big kind of inflection moment.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: the criticism that Apple gets is that they're always a little late to the party, but some of the accolades they get for this practice is they sit, they wait, they're in the hedge, they're laying back in the cut, if you like a studio jam analogy, and then eventually They have their ta da moment where they rebrand it to be magic something instead of AI something and suddenly they're brilliant because they waited a second.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: They took a beat. They probably add a really elegant or hopefully somewhat refined interface to all of this. And then they put it on the edge. They put it on your device, like you said, they integrate it into their operating system and , they take security into account.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: So that way users probably aren't going to mind handing over their [00:12:00] calendars and their contacts and their emails and all of that stuff to Apple's AI, because I would trust if they said it's going to stay on device, it's going to be encrypted on your chip. They're probably going to make a big to do about that because while you are paying a premium for

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: their hardware and software, usually.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: You're still not the product in that your habits and your personal data aren't being sold to somebody else. There are always exceptions to that rule. They are far from a flawless company, but at least in that regard, they have my allegiance a bit more than some of the others. So I am super excited for this.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And I'm super interested to see, have they done the testing so that it is reliable? Because we talk about this all the time, , I want my Siri to be so strong and powerful, be able to do all sorts of stuff for me, but I would love it to do anything besides set an alarm and tell me what the weather is.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: If it could tell me information, that'd be amazing. And my wife and I had this experience with the Alexa just the other day. We constantly try to test Alexa to see if it can even tell us anything about something and it is so bad. And again, I just want one of these things to have reliable information [00:13:00] to ask it in a second.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And so I am super excited about that as long as they can do it without it being. All sorts of crazy 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: fair. And, , I think the expectation that a lot of this is going to happen on device, as we said, is a big deal. , but for some complex calculations or queries, it might need to go into the cloud and they might have to use a third party provider if they don't have their own device.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Language model up to snuff. And some of the early rumors was that they were in talks with open AI. Then a more recent rumor was that they were in talks with Google to use Gemini to power this experience, which had us a little less excited, but it makes sense.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: They have a, but it makes sense. Big partnership with Google and Google pays a lot of money to be the default search engine on the iPhone. So why not the default AI engine? It seems that the latest rumors though, Gavin is that all roads lead back to Mr. Wonderful that, Timmy cook might be snuggling closer

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: to 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Tank? We're gonna be spending time in Shark Tank? Wow, that's exciting.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Yeah. Apple might use open AI's chat GPT to power the [00:14:00] iPhone's AI , chatbot. Which was a story that's running on Quartz. It's all over the place. It seems to be where the rumor mill is talking quite a bit. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: All right, we should move on to the other big story of the week, which was China, , has created a Sora competitor. So this is , a new AI video model called VDU, and VDU is Let's just talk the facts first. So you can generate up to 16 seconds of actual video from this. , it's up to a 10 ADP.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: They have created a new kind of combination transformer model that is called the, hold on one second, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: that 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: The Universal

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Vision.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Transformer.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: So this is a new sort of AI model slash algorithm they've created to create video. Basically all we got with this is a video release from the company and it looks really okay, Kev. I don't know if you've got a chance to see this. I think we should just talk about what our reactions to the video are first, and then talk about what the implications of this might be.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: [00:15:00] The video and I watched it. I was like, this is cool. I wasn't as blown away as I was by the Sora model videos that I saw when they first came out. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: If you had told me this is an open source something, which is gonna be in our hands tomorrow, I would be psyched. I'd be

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: absolutely stoked, it would make sense, it seems to be on par with, for some of the examples, with a Runway or a PicoLabs, and in some examples, way better than.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Good coherence, good colors, believable characters, interesting camera movements, etc. But knowing that these are probably the cherry picked best of their examples that they have and comparing them against Sora, which can do much longer clips at even higher resolutions. I love that, , internationally things are heating up as well. Cause we tend to be very North America centric as we cover these companies. But yeah, I mean, the devil's going to be in the details.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: How long does it take to generate these things? How expensive are they going to be? How censored will the model be if you try to

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I know one detail that I know one detail that they've got pretty well. Can you guess what I'm going [00:16:00] to say?

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I don't want to

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Bear junk, man. They, they figured out how to make bear junk. They 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: figured out I didn't want to guess. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: junk. If you look at,

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Okay,

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: at one of their videos, they figured out how to make bear junk.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Please, let's take a step back for those that don't follow you or AI for Humans on TikTok. Let's talk about BearJunkGate and make it somewhat palatable to a family

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: audience that might be

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: there is no junk gate, there's nothing called junk gate All I'm saying is one of the videos in the in the video Released video is of this cool bear who's walking down the street. He's got sunglasses 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: leather so chill. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: You realize he's got no pants. He's got no beds and yes, he hangs, which is the thing that I was not expecting to see when I saw an AI video.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I'll just leave it at that. If you want, you'll watch the video on YouTube or you can go find yourself, but he hangs, he 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: It made me think about those downy bears.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: you know, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: bears Charmin, you mean, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: or the 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Downey ones of the 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: wasn't the downy, it has a soft little bear?

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Wasn't it a cute little, the downy soft [00:17:00] bear 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: that bear 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: we know, we know the Charmin bears are packing. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows they come with the high heat. I'm talking about the downy bear.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Okay, okay, that's, we're moving on, double snort, double snort means we're moving on, okay.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: hey, hey AI for human heads, let us know in the comments, which animated bear do you think is packing the most? Which cartoon bear do you think hangs? And if you want to use an AI art tool to let us know, post it on X. Let us know in the

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: comments. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: go, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Go look at the video. Alright, let's move on. The rabbit, R1, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: not, there's no junk on this rabbit. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Oh, actually, it may be a lot of junk

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: it might be a lot of junk in this rabbit, Gavin. It's wabbit hunting

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: season, according to the tech reviewers out there, because the Rabbit R1 was a little portable. A pocket sized device, , engineered by Teenage Engineering. A beautiful, bright orangish, , window to the AI world with a [00:18:00] touch screen on it, a little scroll wheel, and a camera, and basically the

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: promise of this 200 device, Gavin, was that you could take it out, ask it any question.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: It had a large, uh, Action model, is that what they were calling it? Built

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: within, that would go and

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: do things for you, like, Uh, yeah, supposedly, , make reservations at restaurants that you like, Or book airline tickets, or get your Grubhub delivered, And that was the promise, it was like, you don't need a cell phone anymore, You have this AI powered tool, And surprise, surprise, People seem a little underwhelmed.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: So I want to go back to what , we originally talked about this. I want to give you some, some props. You had said, this is a cool looking thing. It's interesting, but why would you need this? It's basically kind of, you could do this better on your phone. And I think I would, the time was like, Oh, I think it could be cool and interesting.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And I, just to be clear, we don't have one of these, but watching enough of the reviews I think we've Marquez Brownlee did an amazing review on this, which he Again, got crap for shitting on a product, but the product is not good. And he, I 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: think his review is really [00:19:00] truthful. , the thing about this is.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: They shipped a product that doesn't allow you to do barely anything, right? Like the idea of what this product could have been and my may eventually be is Interesting, right if there was a device that allowed you to access all of these things in a proper way via your voice and do Stuff kind of fast and cool.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: That's great But AI as a tool set for this particular use case, which is me needing an AI to interact for me in the world, whether it's on Spotify with DoorDash or all these other things I wanted to do is not there yet. And I think that that is the issue we are running into with this. And yes, could this not be an app on its own?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Sure. But if this standalone device actually worked as promised and there were enough things that were good that came out of it, I would still be interested in having it for a couple hundred bucks, but that's the issue is the AI part of it is really the part that doesn't live up to the promise right now, right?

Is any part of you excited to say that the Rabbit R1 isn't that great or [00:20:00] that the Humane Pin isn't all that exciting? Right.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: no.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Right.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: This brings 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Marquez is that way either. Mar I don't think Marquez feels that way. You know 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: no, certainly not. We want competition. We want exciting new devices. We want these things to work. We want people to really push , the potential of AI forward as fast as possible. We love that. Let's bring it on. But there was a video that redesigned the R1 in seconds that I think is worth everybody's time.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: It's 21 seconds of pure bliss. But , someone who replied. , Martin Lincroft said, and very succinctly, we already have amazing devices. An app is all you need. And if you see that sentence and you want to challenge it, well, then your piece of hardware has to do something that the phone itself cannot do because , he's right.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: We already have amazing devices. We've got these ultra thin, ultra light sensor packed beauties, right? Whatever flavor you want. Foldable or otherwise we've got them already. So if adding AI to it is the trick, well, then it is an app, you know, [00:21:00] begrudgingly regrettingly, it is an app. If you want to go make a better operating system for one of those devices that is packed with AI, then great.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Let's do that. But . Unless you can compete again with all the sensors, compute, and battery, and everything packed into these devices that we're already walking around with, I don't know why. , so let's look at this, uh, real quick. This Rabbit R1 destroyed in seconds , from AI for Success. , you put this in the rundown, Gavin, and it made me laugh really hard.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: So if I had to redesign this thing, this is what I would do. First, I get rid of the scroll wheel completely. It's cute, but it's just not useful enough to me. And then now probably just move the camera on top of the bezel. There's a little bit of room there. And then maybe add some hardware volume buttons.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: It is a speech based device and you might as well extend the screen because, you know, you've got a little bit of room down there and Oh, look, it's a phone. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I just wanna shout out that is, uh, that is Dave 2D who made the original video. He's a YouTuber. He makes amazing YouTube tech videos. So that's a Dave 2D.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I got caught by an AI grindset hustler,

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Gavin. I take 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: back. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Exactly. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I [00:22:00] take it back, AI for success. No, thank you. You will be muted. Thank you, Dave, for making that video. It's great, but big case in point, Gav, the quick redesign. Yeah. If you're optimizing for a handheld device, it might look like the things that have been optimizing for years to be held in our hands.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And I will say a shout out to , every team's trying to make something interesting and different. And I think the rabbit teams like physical design is interesting and, you know, a lot, they got some crap for it feeling kind of cheap and stuff, but I still think it's cool to try stuff. I think the bigger concern I have with this overall is if voice is the thing that we're all going to be interacting with AI eventually, and if we have our own AI agents that we can say something to, they'll go out and do it.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: It's hard to make a device that is entirely backed on that idea. If it cannot already solve the problem of going out and doing it. That is the biggest thing. Like I am okay with the device that is specifically designed to do that, which is a voice only device, even if it's separate from my phone, but if it cannot do the thing that it is sold to do, then we should not do it.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: All [00:23:00] right, Gavin, it's time for a new segment that we haven't labeled yet. And we're going to do it in real time so people can see how great we are at predicting the next word, just like a large. Language model. . It is time for three.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Three quick stories? Pitchforks.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Okay, 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: our first quick story is that gamers are up in arms about, , Treyarch, the Call of Duty developer making a job posting, basically, , that invoked generative art. And this one had the never AI ers and the never AI gamers. Both upset. It was a 2D artist animator post out of Los Angeles.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And it said that, , they're looking for an artist who is skilled in digital illustration, motion design, and using generative AI tools. So of course, pitchforks sharpened, torches lit. Anything more to say about that quick hit, Gavin? 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I think probably [00:24:00] it's just we're going to see more of these types of jobs coming soon. And this is the kind of job you hope to see, which is like a mix of real artists gets a job to work with generative tools that were generative AI tools as part of this in the same way you would have hired somebody to work for with Photoshop.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: You are going to continue to see people get mad about this, though.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Our next, what do we call this segment? Three quick news stories?

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: What is 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Three quick stories, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: three quick 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: stories.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Our second of the three quick stories! A Catholic group defrocked an AI priest after it gave strange answers, including baptize your child in Gatorade.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Honestly, if baptism started using Gatorade, I think I would go to them now. You know what I 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Oh yeah, you dip in the dew. What if that

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: was the like when the coach, You want an extreme baby? You gotta dip them in the dew.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: yeah, you 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Was that an electric guitar or the screech of your badass child? The [00:25:00] Catholic

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: advocacy group 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: story. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Catholic Answers released an AI priest called Father Justin earlier this week. They quickly defrocked the chatbot after it repeatedly claimed it was a real member of the clergy. It said, yes, my friend, I am as real as the faith we shared. They updated the model on the website to make it look business casual.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: If you're not on the YouTube, go check out this story in our show links or go to the YouTube because I want you guys to look into the eyes of this, AI priest and tell me if there's something fricking weird going on there.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: So, you know, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: We've 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Is that the power of Christ compelling you? What's happening? 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I don't know. It's a power of something. So just go look at this character. He should not be anything. He should not be a priest. He should not be an AI. I want him off of my computer 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: You don't even want him as a Sims downloadable character or a Second Life avatar?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: thank you. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: All right. Sorry, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Dr. Father Creepy. No, thank you, Father Creepy. Keep it to yourself.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: All right. Last in

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Three 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: quick stories is going great so 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: [00:26:00] stories revolutionizing thrills, Six Flags sets new standards in digital transformation overhaul to quote elevate the guest experience. So the last

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: experience I had a six out of six flags was someone literally being wheeled out of a gurney from the hurricane Harbor while the EMTs were swatting at, a trash bin that had a swarm of bees coming out of it. That's the last memory that I have out of Six Flags, but apparently they are going to be introducing a new digital wallet, a revamped mobile app, and something Gavin named Missy Six, our new digital concierge powered by generative AI. So get ready for

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Missy 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Missy Six 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: and Father, Father Creepy, Father Creepy and Missy Six in the same room together? What is gonna happen, Kevin?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I don't want to know. I want to keep those people away from me.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: and there would be a swarm of bees coming out of his digital mouth, just like there were out of that very real trash can. That is the first and last time we [00:27:00] will ever do three quick news stories.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: We're moving on where this is our last news story for the day. Um, so if you didn't catch it on 60 minutes, uh, shout out to the olds that watch 60 minutes and the olds that make 60 minutes. Jensen Wong was featured, , the CEO of NVIDIA was featured in a long story on 60 minutes. But the interesting thing was, they also brought on Brett Adcock, , the CEO of the company that makes the Figure 01 humanoid robot. So, Kevin, this was a, just a sound up that I thought was really made me laugh. And I guess it's not laugh is the wrong way. I was like, Oh No, this is like a bad sign going forward of what we're 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Right. You're, you're laughing at the delivery and the edit of all of the words that are being said, not necessarily of the impact or

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: the context of those words, because when you sent it to me, I hit play and I thought something was wrong with my browser. This is a very real clip from 60 Minutes featuring Brett Adcock

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I think there's an opportunity to ship billions of robots in the coming decades onto the planet. Billions. I would think that a lot of [00:28:00] workers would look at that as, this robot taking my job. I think over time, AI and robotics will start doing more and more of what humans can, and better. But what about the worker? The workers work for companies. And so companies, when they become more productive, earnings increase. I've never seen one company that had earnings increase and not hire more people. There are some jobs that are going to become obsolete. Well, let me offer it this way. I believe that you still want human in the loop. Because we have good judgment, because there are circumstances that the machines are just not going to understand. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Okay. So that last voice you heard there was Jensen Wong. And I have to say, Kevin, listening, just, I only heard Jensen's voice. And jensen kind of sounds like an AI. Like there's a moment in there where I was just like, Oh, Jensen, are you an AI?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: He's not, obviously he's very smart, incredibly capable CEO, but again, this is an [00:29:00] interesting look at these companies and they know the danger of, obviously we've talked about all the AI existential threat, are they coming for us? Are they going to kill us? Blah, blah, blah. That is probably way far out and not that serious, but there is something to be said for the idea of robots coming in.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Especially taking factory jobs, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: right? This is clear. And, 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Or delivery jobs, or

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: handyman work, or lawn care, or literally anything. And, in the past, if a company makes more money, they theoretically, yeah, they could hire up. We know that there are also massive layoffs against the backdrop of record profits across many industries. And who's to say that the company that's making more money, Gavin, is going to hire more humans? ,

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: if an influx of robots is saving them a bunch of money and productivity through the roof, well then maybe they'll just hire more of them. And then we'll

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: need robot middle managers, with cute little ties, and a robot HR, and then eventually they'll just put a robot [00:30:00] behind their own desk. Like, why would they continue to deal with messy Fussy flesh bags.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Well, and what Jensen says there is the word human in the loop, which if you don't know what human in the loop is, don't feel bad. It's not like a common term, but what it basically means is there will need to be a human as part of the feedback loop that these AIs deal with. But that does not need to be a one for one human in the loop.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: It doesn't even need to be a one for 10 human loop. I think ultimately maybe like a one for a hundred human in the loop. Like you could see an Amazon warehouse run by six humans that there normally might be a thousand humans because there are now. A 2000 version of robots. And those six humans are in charge of maintenance and doing all this other stuff.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Now we are not there yet, but this is a world that exists and is coming. , and it kind of leads us into Kevin, our special guest today, which I'm really excited about. I actually, well, you know, uh, humanoid robots are such a big deal. And figure Oh, one is one of the most interesting ones. We have [00:31:00] a really fascinating special guest.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Gavin, he's coming, he's, he's

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: actually grabbing the guest microphone.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: He's grabbing the guest microphone. What am I supposed to do?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Oh, okay. Go 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: what's up? Kevin, Gavin, and all you tech savvy listeners out there in the digital cosmos. It's your boy Tech Drip in the building. Ready to drip, drap, drop some knowledge bombs and shake up your neural networks with the latest and greatest in tech innovation.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: That's cool. Strap in fam. Cause we're about to take this

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: podcast to the next level.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I don't, okay. Tech trip. So I was going to get to this tech trip, but tech trip is a rapper who likes to rap specifically about, uh, humanoid robots, which is 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: actually kind of a cool thing. Like 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: of course, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: think, he was going to be a jerk about it, but yes, of course he is. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: He isn't being a

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: jerk. He's ready to drip, drop, drop some knowledge on us. And that's, yeah, I'm ready to have my neural networks shaken. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Let's ask him what he thinks about the current state of humanoid robots in the [00:32:00] world.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Hey, let me lay it down hot for y'all. Humanoid robots are cracking the code on the future right before our eyes. We got creations like Optimus Gen 2 and that slick H1 from Unitry. Not just

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: walking, but strutting into the spotlight. These metal mavens are more than just nuts and bolts. They're reshaping industries, brozoes. And don't

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: even get me started on figure zero one. This robot's dancing circles around what we thought possible. Bringing that sci fi fantasy to your front door. It's not just about assistance anymore. It's about transcendence. Sure. Okay. We're witnessing a revolution fam where tech meets tenacity and Humanoid robots are leading the charge today. We're

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: all about robots keeping up with us Wiki wiki wake up cuz the future is not knocking. It's already here

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Wicky, wicky, wake up. Okay, so, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: [00:33:00] somehow he must have snuffed some sort of weird tranquilizer throughout that whole answer because it slowly 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I don't know what happened, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I want to make sure I So, just so everybody knows, this Kevin and I have created with a prompt. If you're new to the show, this is an AI co host. This is completely generated by us, this idea.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: , I heard a little birdie tell me that, uh, Tektrip brought some songs to play of his favorite, , he's a rapper and he makes raps 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: He was in the parking lot trying to hand mini discs to people when they got out of their cars. It's like, you're

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: gonna love this. Hot fire. Can you handle these demos? So yeah, apparently he brought some of his tracks. I don't want to play all of them, Gavin, but maybe some like little 30 second samples.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Hey, that's good to play. Let's play 30 second samples of, of the first one he brought for us. I think this one's about figure oh one.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Yeah, this is Mech Mines anthem in the lab where the future's spun here's the tale of Brett's Figure 01 Crafted with a Mind not a simple script innovation's ship he daringly captains It Mental Minds they twist and shout under Brett's command [00:34:00] they break out check the mech no plain tech figure 01's got respect on the scene

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: it's so pristine brett Adcock the Dream Machine switch gears we veer now hear it Clear Gavin Purcell What's that I hear? Old school chap with his podcast trap, but against these bots your vibe's a rap your waves trying to crash our sleektechbash bret's creations creations flash hold on, I got to stop that there

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Wait, hold on. Hold 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: of all, Tech

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Drip coming online when he's in the booth.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I love that.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: He's got a, who knew he was a grime rapper. I didn't realize he was a grime rapper, but what the hell, man? Is he coming after me? Was that like, it sounded like there was something about me in that 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I definitely heard your name. I could not make out anything else around it. But I definitely heard a shout out to you, Gavin, which is really interesting to hear in a song that should have been about different humanoid robots. Did he have an opinion on those robots, by the way? I didn't 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: If you're watching the video, we'll make sure to include the lyrics to the rap that he put in there. And I just read them myself and [00:35:00] it's 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: actually semi offensive. I I'd like to ask him really fast. Why he decided he was gonna come after me in this song cuz I just wanted to know what his thought was and I don't Understand what the deal with this is you have a problem with me

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Ah, you know how it is in the studio, spitting bars is all about that playful jab and hype. Yeah. Gavin, he's got that vibe that just begs for a friendly lyrical duel. You feel me? I do feel you. It's all love, just pushing each other to bring out the best, showing that fire. And Kevin, man, that dude's cool like the dark side of the pillow.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Aww. He's got

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: that 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: dark side of the pillow 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: wisdom that just flows, making everything seem smoother, sharper. It's like, when he steps into the room, the game elevates. That's right! When he's not wrong, he's not wrong! Thank you, to to to to trip!

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: This feels this feels like we're in a different. I've done this before Kevin. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: He's saying to 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: a slightly different All 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: sorry, he's saying to, he wants me to play the second track,

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: called tech strut

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Alright. Okay, thank you. [00:36:00] Balloons 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Rolling through the lab. Atlas steps, quiet, electric, soul and a robot ride. Boston Dynamics. They flip the script, all electric moves. This tech is equipped. Then we slide to the side and let's switch to view.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Talking about Gavin. Bro, what it do Mustard hat, droopy eye,you need a new plan. Trying to do you even scan? Bustin a cap, like he's all that. But next to Atlas man, he just flat Gavin steppin', but he's missing pace. Droopy eyed bro, you're losing the race. Hit the gym. Maybe lift run a lap. Before you're trippin that tech savvy trap. Okay, and that's how it is when you're

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: in the booth. And you understand that, Gavin. You gotta have that playful jab and hype. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: he said I have a droopy eye. What in the hell? That is one of the most 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: meanest things I've 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: ever heard. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: you're flat compared to Atlas. And is that a, is that an attack on , the dumper? Is it

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: going after the dumpy? 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: oh wow, I got it, he's going after my dumper saying I'm out of shape. Damn it, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: man. Tech drip, what is going on here?

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Oh, he just held up a [00:37:00] fist and then went I think he wants me to play the third track Gavin

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Oh, did the third track tech dump? 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Optimus Prime-time... vroom. Tesla's new spectacle? Zoom. Gavin’s jokes? More like kaboom— Stale, frail, they flop in the room. Stir through his humor. It's a tomb. Old gags decay. Whiz broom. Gavin. Whoa. Joke so snooze. Joke so snooze. Drop like bricks. They never amuse. Nah. Skirts. Echoes in the

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: void. Brr. Comedy’s ghost, it’s all but destroyed, splash! Lights dim on Gavin, crowd's annoyed, uh, King of jesters, crown’s a void, skrrt! 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Okay, well that, uh, thank you, Tech Drip, for all of that, I suppose. Gavin, I'm sorry you made a, a very powerful enemy in the, uh, AI hip hop

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: No, no, no TechDrip is the one who made an enemy He's gonna go down and I 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: will take him out at some point in the future Again everybody, [00:38:00] we're sorry sometimes for these things. Sometimes they work really well, sometimes they don't, 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Very quickly to the listeners, if they have an idea at 11 o'clock at night and it needs to hit the next morning very quickly, how could you possibly record an entire hip hop track about it?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: So, very quickly, I used, , ChatGPT, and I said, help me write a rap song, it comes out with a really crappy one, and then I threatened it and said, please help us make it better and faster and dumber And then I used you do our song Generation AI song generation engine and plugged those ideas into you do all of which just to make a very dumb Diss track against myself for what is a very dumb small tiny piece of comedy at the smallest level of tininess For what we do on this show.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Everybody saw what you did there, Gavin, and they loved it, which reminds me, it might be time for a segment of our show that we call, A, I See what you did 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: See what you did there.

[00:39:00] 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: we've lost all

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: of Kevin Rose's audience, let's dive into the things that we come across, Gavin, as we're scrolling through social media posts and YouTube videos. These are the things that stand out and make us say, Hey, I see what you did there. And you have a fantastic one for us this week.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: yeah, this is a very quick one. It is by one of our favorite creators. His name is demon flying Fox. And you probably know this guy from the Harry Potter Balenciaga video that blew up the internet midway through last year, spawned an entire series of memes. It was very, very good. He has taken these 1950s kind of Panavision style trailers. People were using, , mid [00:40:00] journey to create images, then runway ML to animate, , current things that make them look like they were made in the 1950s. And what demon flying Fox did is he created one that was a realistic variation of the Simpsons.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Set in the 1950s using these kind of panavision poppy colors. And you can see on the video, if you're watching, you'll see Homer, you'll see Bart, you'll see Lisa, you'll see Maggie, but then it's even more fun because it goes to all the side characters. , it's just what's a really cool way of looking at how to use these AI tools to make something that, again, is fanfiction, it is something that is super fun, but it is not serious, it is kind of goofy, and it's purposely goofy, and I just really thought he did an amazing job with it.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: There's also a Futurama one, which was just recently posted as well. A variation of the theme, but I think they're They're really brilliant, and when you sent them to me, it stopped me in my tracks, and I said, Hey!

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I see what you did 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I see what you did there. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Each And every week, you and I leverage AI tools to [00:41:00] do some pretty dumb stuff. And sometimes it's making hip hop diss tracks for a robot that doesn't like us, but likes other humanoid robots. Other times, it's what, Gav?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Mine today was I actually used this in my, , robot creation or to create our AI co hosts. If you didn't see this kind of big news, chat GPT has now launched a memory feature to all of its GPT four plus users. So you have to be a paid user to get this. But. But it's pretty cool in that you can now ask chat GPT to remember things for you.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: So if you're a heavy user of chat GPT, or really, if you've ever used it, you may know that when you pop open a new chat, it started from scratch. And then there was a set thing they had called custom instructions, which was something that you could set up so that every time you opened a chat, it would remember a specific thing.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Well, what memory is doing and promises to do is it allows you to add certain things about yourself or about whatever you want the project to be. into chat GPT. So the way that I use it in this particular instance is first, I wanted to make sure it knows about our [00:42:00] show. So I kind of gave it a few facts about the show, but one of the kind of secret sauces we do with our AI coast is it actually is a pretty long prompt, right?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And every time you make it, You have to work with chat GPT to get it to adjust that prompt so that it understands this is the format I want, but here is the new inputs and here's the new thing like for this week. I said I wanted to be a rapper. I wanted to know about humanoid robots and I wanted to dislike Gavin.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And in the past I would have to kind of wrangle it back and forth and kind of make sure it understood what the actual format was and then I could go in and tweak it to make it what I wanted. Well, I will say with chat GPT memory, I was able to do what I used last week and put that into the prompt as a piece of memory.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And then I went to access it and I didn't have to do the wrangling. So Kevin, like that felt like already a step in the right direction and people are doing really interesting things with this. This is like the very beginning stages of a personalized chat GPT experience. And I think it really does show where the company is going because.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: , I want [00:43:00] my chat GPT to know as much about me and remember as much about me as possible. So that when I ask it, Hey, , give me a music recommendation or like, I read this book, I want to try something like it. I would love it to be able to know the things that I've already done.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: It's a really, really powerful unlock and people are already hacking it in interesting ways. , for example, if I ask you for a list, give me , five items always, so you don't have to specify in your prompt each time. Here's how many I want. Or remember, if I say X do Y is a very simple, plain English prompt, but it will hard code behavior into the AI that wouldn't have existed outside of whatever chat session you were in for that one moment.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And. When you think about the scaling of this, Gavin, that they have servers running right now that are, humming on millions of users, having multiple chats a day and having to remember every word that's being said. And that is its own instantly accessible database for everyone. Like my tiny little brain liquefies out of the [00:44:00] sheer scaling of it all.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Cause it seems like a tiny feature. If you just say, oh yeah, now it can remember you. Having to roll that out for everyone is no small feat.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Yeah. And especially to call back against the LLM, right? Like, I think that's the tricky thing. Cause like, obviously you could put things into just memory somewhere and it could be like, Oh, this is my individual back and forth. But to be able to remember and then call to the LLM and have that interaction happen, it feels super special.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: . And that feels like a really cool thing. So that's what I spent some time with this week.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Gavin, I spent a lot of time in a quaint little AI town that I own. That I operate. I'm the mayor. I'm the villain. I am the alpha.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I am the omega.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: me, man? 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Oh Yeah.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: you were there too. You were there too. You'll see. It's fine. So if you go to convex. dev slash AI town or just Google it, , there is a virtual town where AI characters live, chat, and socialize. And it was this, , a 16 Z backed AI experience where [00:45:00] you could log in and then hop into an AI powered town in real time, along with, uh, I think seven other human beings.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And you could walk about and have conversations with the characters and the characters are going to remember you remember what you say, remember what the other characters say. The town is alive and much like what you just discussed, the AI has a memory. And it's really cool, except. Only a handful can be in that world at once.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And you have no control over the world. You're just a sort of an avatar walking about and conversing. Well, you can now download and run that program locally. And it was something I was able to do in one click because hashtag not an ad, but shout out to our favorite piece of software, Pinocchio dot computer. It's just called Pinocchio, but if you go to Pinocchio dot computer, you can download it and you can run AI town. On your Mac, on now on your Windows PC, even on Linux. , CocktailPeanut, the developer of Pinocchio, made it one click simple to get this up and running. And then I went in through the files, Gavin, and I found this character file where I could go and then I could see the [00:46:00] code.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And it was, the character's name and a little bio about them and what their goal happens to be. And I said, ha ha ha! I can edit this plain text. So I went in there and started mucking about and I put Guy Fieri in the town. I put you in there. I said that you were obsessed with analytics and promoting a podcast and cutting

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Tik TOKs. I put myself in there, of course, as the most charming, handsome, and hilarious

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: member Of the AI town, Obviously.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: and. The prerequisites are very simple. You have to have, Oh, llama installed on your computer that allows , your local computer to access the llama Meta's AI language model.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: It lets it run it. , and that's, what's powering this AI town experience. So you have to have, Oh, llama running, and then you can run AI town again. If you're doing it on Pinocchio, it's very easy. In fact. I just updated the app, Gavin. I was going to give instructions on how to get in there, find this character's file, show you some of the code and how you can easily modify it. But cocktail peanut just one up me. If you're in Pinocchio, there is a world editor [00:47:00] and all you have to do is click that and it pops open in a web browser. That exact file where you can add characters, you can change their personality types, you can muck with their goals, et cetera. It's a cute little AI town that you can simulate for yourself, drop your friends and family in there.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: You can eavesdrop and see what they're saying to each other, or you can put yourself in the world and have a conversation with one of the characters as well, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I want to see if anybody can break this. One of the fascinating things about watching people play with the Sims. And when I break, when I say break this, obviously somebody can go ahead and break the code, right? 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: It's not that fun. What I want to see is like, is there a Lord of the Flies sort of scenario you could create?

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Or is there something that could happen in this AI town? Whereas if you gave all the, what if you gave all of the personalities of Like door knocking Mormons. And there's one guy who's like a normal person. And so like all the Mormon door knockers try to come to the one guy's house. Like, 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: ooh, yeah. Each, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: ways that you can,

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: each resident has their own MLM, and the, uh, the only person who will get to survive in the [00:48:00] town has to get the rest of them in their downline.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: whoever signs up the 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: most. That's pretty great. That's pretty bad. I want this expanded video game to be a thing, right? Like I would love to just see Essentially SimCity or The Sims, but really allow personalization and characterization, right? With The Sims, there was kind of this illusion of this that you could really have, , this kind of free will and everything like that.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: But, I want almost, like, the Dwarf Fortress style small town game where you can, zoom out. Drop a person in here, drop a person in here, give them very weird and specific goals, and then just watch the chaos unfold. I think that would be a super fun simulation game. Also, I just thought about this while we were talking.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: I sure hope that's not what the, uh, the alien race in the other dimensions thinks that they're doing to us. And that is what this is right now. Cause that would make a lot more sense. If that would make a lot more sense about what is happening right now in our world 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Yeah, someone got carried away playing Earth Tycoon.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: [00:49:00] Yeah, 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: And we're just, we're just 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: let's throw a crazy tornado. Let's throw a 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: crazy tornado season out. Watch this tornado go. Look at what they do in this. Look how close they drive to this tornado. You won't believe it. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: That's the dumb thing that

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I did with A.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: I. that all of you can do with A. I. this week, It makes it nice and easy. Grab Pinocchio or install it locally on your computer and break some things. It's the fastest way to learn.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: , speaking of gaming, we're super excited to welcome our guest to today's show. He has been in game development for about 20 years and has been streaming actively his game development for a while now. You know him as Pirate Software. His name is Thor.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And we are super excited to talk about his indie game, his thoughts on AI, and really everything under the sun with him right now.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Thor, before we start though, we are going to ask the most, disturbing possible question you can ask about AI. On a, on a scale of one to a hundred, and this is a number I'm looking for you, what percentage chance does Do you think that AI has to kill all [00:50:00] people and why?

Thor: Hmm. I'm going to say zero because I think we'll do it to ourselves first. Legitimately. Yeah, it's, it's one of the things that's funny because my community asks me about this all the time. Like, do you believe in aliens? You know, and let's say like, this is going to get kind of complicated. It'll be longer, right? earth actually has an electromagnetic sphere around it, right? Protects us from interstellar radiation. Sun has the exact same thing. If you go outside of that, radiation is so high, it destroys organic life really, really fast. You'd have to have a massive amount of shielding to get through it. So if it is aliens coming to our planet, right?

Thor: If We do actually have that, it's likely that they're robots, Much more likely than it being organics in any way.

Thor: So let's say that we build up an AI in our current form, one that goes out and explores space for us and signals back information. This would be the best way to explore outside of our solar system in a way that was tangible.

Thor: Well, what happens if that happens and it's leading back to a race. that's long since dead? It's much more likely at that point. How many other species did the same thing? So I think it's more likely we kill ourselves before AI kills us and [00:51:00] maybe AI outlives us doing menial tasks.

Thor: that lead back to no one 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: That is the most well thought out answer, Kevin, that we have ever had to that question. So Thor, thank you for that. And I kind of agree. I think that's pretty smart.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: so, okay, question. Do you think we actually punched through the Van Allen belt, or do you think we faked the moon landing? 

Thor: I I think we probably punched through it. I think we Did much to the not very good health of the people involved frankly 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: we go through the bottom side of our flat earth, or did we shoot out of the top?

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Good question.

Thor: I

Thor: think we go right into the core where all the, you know, all the bad guys are, you know, You remember have you guys actually have you seen all this crazy shit where they're like in agartha?

Thor: They're like they escaped into agartha. There's this whole entire thing with it. It's ridiculous, 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: hanging down there with the Fraggles. I think that's the lore. 

Thor: The moon is a hologram, but it's also hollow. Don't forget that that's 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: So, it's okay, so 

Thor: love conspiracies, 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Uh, me, me too, maybe humanity wiping itself out is not necessarily a conspiracy. It might just [00:52:00] be a history repeating itself for some. , do you think AI accelerates that chance of the doom and gloom outlook of humanity, or do you think AI could potentially save us 

Thor: I think AI is going to be really, really useful as a tool for some activities.

Thor: I think in learning things such as, for instance, we've, you know, folding at home, right? Folding at home was used for a very, very long period of time. It's still used today for doing things like, uh, being able to fold proteins to try and make advancements in medical science. It, uh, AI does that infinitely better than just having a bunch of people running normal CPUs at home.

Thor: It does it infinitely better than having a bunch of researchers doing it. I think some of the biggest gains we can have with AI currently are in activities like that. Large data sets, pattern recognition, massive associations. And I think that could do a lot of good for humanity. Massive amount. At the same time, if you misuse AI to, do something very terrible with it, such as take over large amounts of systems or cause havoc inside of a country or do things aggressively over the internet, it can cause a lot of damage, right?

Thor: You, there's so many different ways this can go [00:53:00] and it's kind of like having a gun, right? You can use it for defense, you can use it for offense and it's, it's a tool. It's a tool like anything else. I don't think right now we're in danger of having AGI, you know, Artificial General Intelligence, but I do think that AI as its current form is a tool that can be used for many different purposes.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: think that's super smart. It's a lot of what we talk about on the show too. Right. And I think there's a lot of people out there who are getting up in arms about the idea of things that aren't even possible about it yet. But obviously. There are future things you could look at and go further and further like we let's take one step back before we jump back into the AI stuff.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: I do want to talk a little bit about how you got started because first of all, you are very good at what you do. You are streaming every day, which I also appreciate how active you are and how often you go back to the spot. What turned you from a game developer into a twitch streamer? 

Thor: It's actually still both. So I, yeah, so, yeah, I actually stream under Software and Game Development most generally, and I do that because I make video games on stream and I try to teach other people how to make games. It's, [00:54:00] you know, Something I've, I've been in the games industry for 20 years. So after doing everything that I've done throughout my career, I was like, I'm going to go make my own studio.

Thor: I have an opportunity to do it. Let's go for it. And I realized something that really bothered me, which is so many indie studios were going into things like early access and stuff like that. They would take the money and they just run away. And nothing would happen. And it became more and more and more of a problem where people were basically just getting wrecked.

Thor: Where they're like, throw all this money in an eDev. The project never came out. It was dumb. It's like, how do we prove to people that we're going to do that? First, we went out and kickstarted with a demo. And second, we stream all the development. So I've done that since the very beginning, and it just sort of evolved over time, And I got better at talking to people and more comfortable kind of telling stories. and people started to stay. And then, um, last November, it was like, Uh, we tried to go from 13, 000 subscribers on YouTube to 15, 000, was the idea, by the end of the year. We started putting out a lot of shorts of me just talking about certain things, and after seven years of me talking about things, I got I got a lot better at telling stories, and we went from 13, 000 in November to

Thor: 1.

Thor: 7 million as of today. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Wow, that's incredible. Since [00:55:00] November of last year, see Kevin, it can happen. Kevin, it can 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Yeah, you have to have, , real talent, real ability. You have to have a, a, a voice that demolishes both of ours in the, in, in basically in, in every aspect. It really does. I could listen to you for days, but Gavin and I, we,

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: we, we struggle at about the 45 minute mark and

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: our 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: why we use AI. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: right. 

Thor: Now you guys got it. I, I'm going to be real with you. When I first started streaming, I could make it maybe an hour before I was like, my, my vocal cords hurt. Like it was like, I need to, I need to go lay down now I go 12 hours a day, every day except for Thursday. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: That's 

Thor: And it's like constantly talking the whole time 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: And are you actually, you're coding while you're doing that? Like, so you're working while you're talking. Okay.

Thor: Sometimes I'll be coding, sometimes I'll be like thinking about how I'm going to build a cutscene out or whatever it's going to make, right? Sometimes I'm just talking to chat and answering questions. A lot of what I do is I have this, this huge system where people like throw bits at me, which is like currency on Twitch.

Thor: And then, uh, they ask me a question about their career or their life or anything like that. And I answer the question while I'm doing other stuff. And it's, it's [00:56:00] mostly It's a really useful system because it allows people to ask and not have their question missed because it all goes into the queue. But there are so many people to ask questions that I can't get to them all.

Thor: So the way that I handle that is at the end of the stream, I have an automated system that calculates the value of all of the missed messages, and then we donate that to charity. So I've given out 29, 855 to charity through that system 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: That's amazing.

Thor: since November, by the way. So that's just going to keep going up.

Thor: We'll probably have like, I don't even know, maybe like, 60 to 100k by the end of the year, if it keeps going that 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: I love how you, you're so comfortable now with your community too, which is such a cool way. I mean, obviously you get used to that. Kevin's done this a lot longer than me, but , it's fun to start to get to know your community better over time and have them get inside jokes and all that stuff.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: And it feels, you know, It's different for me who comes from traditional media, right? I spent my lot of my career working in television or producing for celebrities It just feels different to have this direct connection Even if it's a smaller audience with these people who understand you and have been along the journey for a while

Thor: Oh yeah. And like, one of the things that I always tell the community too, [00:57:00] is like, they're my boss, man. Like the chatters, the stream, like chat. They're my boss. Like, without them, none of this happens. None of it. Not a, not a single thing. Like, I, I, I find that a lot of the times there are streamers that will hit it big or, or become large and they get kind of this weird ego towards their community where they're like, I'm better than you.

Thor: That's why I'm so, it's like, no, dude, 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Yeah, it didn't work for me. Thank you for pointing that out. I 

Thor: who watch 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: that Thor. 

Thor: Did you get the big ego? Nice. But 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: I, that's

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: why I gamble on steak. Now I'd occasionally talk about AI and then I hit the high limit slots, but we don't have to get into that. I want to focus on you and your success and your amazingness. Something I really love. I love your site. So much because , it's a quick little bit about you.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Obviously, if you're live streaming, it's there. And then the rest is like, Hey. You want to do this? There's no magic, you even demystify the talent aspect of it. Like if you just work hard and there's no best editor, there's no best sound tool. There's no best anything. There are just different approaches and you just got to try something.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: And [00:58:00] we talk about AI every week on this podcast. I feel like we are so very much in that phase of these tool sets right now, that it's so exciting that when anybody comes to me and ask, well, where should I start? What should I use? What should I do? What is best? It's always, that's always such a loaded thing.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: It's like, there is no best just go out there and use, and eventually you'll figure out what is best for you. 

Thor: I think that's the biggest question that I get too. People come to me and they're like, what programming language should I learn first? I'm like, no. And like a programming language is like a tool, like a hammer, a saw or a screwdriver, Right.

Thor: So like you wouldn't say, you wouldn't say, how do I learn hammer? it doesn't make any sense. So you say, how do I build a house? And then you go, okay, you build a house with these tools. How do I build a website? You build a website with these languages. It's the same thing. Exactly the same. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Actually, that's a good transition to get us into talking a little bit more about AI because obviously, you know, this the game development community a lot of ways is very divided on AI, right? And I think we come from a place where we see AI as these tools that are getting better. But on the other side, there's all these people that rightly have an understanding that like the way these [00:59:00] were trained and all this other stuff kind of isn't great.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: And it's going to maybe cause jobs to be lost. Where do you land on the AI in game dev debate?

Thor: So the biggest thing that I think about in terms of AI is where's the training data from? That's, that's the most important thing when you're dealing with content creation. If the training data is made from assets that are made in house for artists that have been paid or licensed for that work, no problems.

Thor: You can make whatever you want out of that, right? If they are, if the artists have been licensed for their work that is put into that training model and then the data, the art that is being produced out of it is because of that licensed work, we have no issues. If you're going online and just grabbing as much art as you can and those artists have not been licensed and they haven't been paid, now we have a problem.

Thor: Now we have the entire issue of the debate about this. And I think that nuance kind of gets lost on a lot of people. There's many people online that just start raving about saying all, all generative AI is bad, but it's like, no, this can be used quite well if You

Thor: have the rights to the work that's going into the training data and then we don't have a problem anymore.

Thor: So I think that's the big, the big one for me is that would have a space in making stuff in games. For that, [01:00:00] I think the other thing too is, is talking about, is an AI going to steal my job? This happens a lot, this conversation comes up a lot, even in programming. is AI going to take my job? Should I get into IT? Should I get into, into security? or whatever it's going to be? And the way that I I feel about this is, let's say, we, can do this as a, a four part table. right? You say, Let's say, I want to be a programmer, and I don't want to learn programming because AI might take my job one day. Well, at that point, if you don't learn programming It doesn't matter if AI takes your job or not.

Thor: You're 

Thor: not going to 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: never 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: have that programming 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: take, yeah.

Thor: matter, right? Yeah, never your job that takes, so that doesn't matter. Let's say AI does take the job in the future, but you decided to learn programming, right? Well, now you have an understanding of logical process, you have an understanding of programming languages, you have a way to pivot, and you have a way to adapt, which you didn't have before because you invested in yourself.

Thor: And if you try to become a programmer and you learn everything along It and the AI doesn't take your job, guess what? You get to be a programmer. Cool. So, the real question is not whether or not AI is going to take your [01:01:00] job.

Thor: it's are you going to invest in yourself or not? Are you going to learn? What

Thor: it takes to be a programmer and invest in yourself to learn logical process And learn programming and learn all these different aspects, or not.

Thor: AI is relevant to this. The outcome is, is, doesn't matter.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: And I'm just not going to talk to women. Did I do the logic wrong? Because the way you just said it makes me think I probably should have just gone out there and tried to learn to program.

Thor: You should've. You should've. Yeah. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, yeah. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: do you think, Thor, about Yeah, exactly. What do you think about CoPilot? 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Obviously, uh, Microsoft is really kind of setting it up as a, as a partner for you when you're programming, but there is some questions about the data set that that was used for. Are you, are you familiar with kind of that backstory on that?

Thor: Yeah, I actually don't like Copilot a lot of the times. Um, the way they describe it in the community is it generates mid code. So what it's doing is it's [01:02:00] taking the most average, most common solutions to things. Generally when we're programming, like as a programmer, I'm not just using the most common solutions.

Thor: I understand that. When to break the rules, and when that increases efficiency, when that allows more security, when that allows other functionality to appear. I break the rules in those locations to do uncommon code to make things better. When you're doing something like Copilot, it's going to give you some of the most common solutions to these problems, which doesn't mean they're secure, doesn't mean they're the most efficient, doesn't mean they're the best.

Thor: And if people are kind of delegating that creativity away to an AI currently, they're going to become worse programmers, hands down. They're not solving those problems, they're not learning exactly why that solution's put into place, and they're going to propagate security issues. We see it all the time, even major companies give You know give accidentally by creating something that's vulnerable and someone goes well google did that I'm gonna do that and then they're vulnerable as well.

Thor: And I know this because I do bounty programs I've been doing that for 20 years. I'm a hacker, 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: That's right. You're a, you're a DEF CON type of guy, right? You go and try. [01:03:00] Oh, that's amazing. Yeah.

Thor: yeah, I have three black badges from defcon and my last job was hacking power plants for the doe the federal government So that 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Wow. Wow. 

Thor: They flew me around the country to go hack power plants So like when I see these types of things like oh you guys have delegated away You know your coding to this and it's giving you the most You average results, you're going to propagate security vulnerabilities. That's just going to happen. And they won't be vulnerabilities like, oh, I can patch this. It'll be vulnerabilities in workflow. It'll be vulnerabilities in login management, in all the little things that can't just be patched by pulling down the latest Microsoft patch, right? In the actual flow of your website, the actual flow of your programs.

Thor: And that's, that's disturbing to me. That's a bother, bothersome thing, because you'll just have a whole generation of people that don't know any better. And that sucks. You know? 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Okay, it does write mid code and I think a lot of coders would agree with your sentiment there. , you're approaching it also as a level of someone who gets, uh, uh, drop shipped into, energy facilities to hack them from our government.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: So the level of code that you write and what you would pass as good is probably a little bit above someone [01:04:00] getting into something. Do you worry about, a co pilot by any other name becoming a co pilot? Crutch to a newer code or someone who's trying to learn. Cause some people are split. They say, let the AI help you learn what it looks like.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Now you have an understanding of how to write this thing or fill out something a little bit quicker. But then there are others that claim like, no, no, no, you shouldn't invite this tool into your life at an early phase because you're probably not going to learn it yourself. You're going to rely on it.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: It's going to become a wobbly crutch, slightly broken support. Right,

Thor: It really is. And their projects suffer as a result of that when that does happen.

Thor: I think in its current form, the best usage is, teach me this concept like I'm five. I think it's a great use of that, where you go to it and you go, I would like to understand what arrays are. Can you teach this to me like I'm five? Can you tell it to me, I don't know, in the style of Morgan Freeman? Like, whatever it's going to be.

Thor: And you can get it to do that, and people do that all the time. And that, that actually works really well, like really, really well, when you want to teach yourself in different ways. It's the same reason that we have what's called rubber duck programming, which is you put a little duck on your desk, and you [01:05:00] tell the duck what your problem is when you're programming.

Thor: And you, the act of you saying it out loud, Let's you solve the problem better. If you have something that's explaining something to you in a lot of different ways, rather than just the one way in the tutorial or the one way in the documentation, it can help a ton. And I think that's probably the best use case currently.

Thor: I definitely would not have to have anything write the code for me. And even if I was starting out, because that that will teach you the solution that is not a good solution without telling you why it's good or bad, right.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: It's Hey, I built the house for You It might collapse and you have no idea what the tools are, but the house is there. Enjoy.

Thor: Yep. Yeah, it's there. You can have it. It kind of works. Yeah. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: I'm sorry. One thing we're talking about the show this week is have you seen no, so chat GPT has a memory function that it is announced this week in some form or another, it's not going to be perfect, but one of the things that I have found just playing around with it is this idea that it can start to remember stuff and store it so that it's not always having to be retaught the same thing.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: And right now. We're all kind of , grappling with this kind of general chat GPT, general [01:06:00] AI kind of thing. Have you had like specific use cases for AI in that mold that you've used in your development process at all?

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Like anything like very specific?

Thor: No, I've actually not used AI at all in our development process. I've stayed away from it most generally. It's not even about, like, would it be good or bad? It's just not necessary, right? So, like, most of the stuff that we have set up right now are frameworks that I've already built myself. Like, even things like doing the physics systems, the lighting systems, anything like that.

Thor: There's no benefit that I could have for AI in there. I think the only thing that I would see in game development that is kind of an interest to me, that's kind of in its infancy, Is having AI respond to players as an NPC, so having the NPC be more lifelike. But Right.

Thor: now it ends up just being such a mixed bag of responses that you can't curate the experience in a way that feels good.

Thor: It kind of feels uncanny Valley, right? Maybe in the future, that'll be less uncanny Valley, but right now it ends up being a novelty where people make fun of it rather than something that makes you feel more immersed, if that makes sense. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Yeah, we're actually covering a thing today called AI town. Did you see, have you familiar with AI town? Have you heard about 

Thor: No, I haven't seen it. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: So basically it is a [01:07:00] series of AI agents that essentially, you know, like, almost like a Stardew Valley, like town kind of interact with each other and they create their own interactions.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: You just kind of follow along. You don't play it, but it's, it's very uncanny Valley ask at moments, right? Watching the things they say to each other, they kind of screw up and how they say stuff. And, and it's just an interesting thing to see the AI try to figure out how to Talk like a person because it's not good at it in any sort of way.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Really yet.

Thor: I think the best example I've ever seen of lifelike experiences where they actually matter with a long memory is Dwarf Fortress, and none of that was AI. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Yeah. 

Thor: Like, it's brilliant, frankly. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Yeah. Dwarf fortresses. I I've tried to get into it multiple times and every time I've failed, I know it's great. And I, I've spent hours and hours and hours in front of it trying to dive into it. And I just never felt, but I know at some point I'll take like a lost weekend and just spend it all within door fortress and figure 

Thor: It's so good. It's so good. Everything in that game matters. Like every experience that a dwarf has or any character has, all of it is stored. Everything they've ever done. And it, it [01:08:00] changes their personality completely. And that's all done using traditional storage, right? You know, in a game that originally was just all ASCII.

Thor: So that's kind of wild, 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: I'm curious what you think about , the end user, ? It's not something your community has to worry about just yet. Cause it's nowhere near your products, but we just talked about a story today.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Where a Treyarch got into some hot water because they were looking for, , folks that could play with generative art assets. And they wanted the person on the team that was good with wrangling , that art form and, predictably the community got very upset. There are some never AI ers out there.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Do you think. That temperature is going to change over time for the community. Do you think it's going to be up to the developers to educate the consumers? Or do you think there'll just be like two different factions, one that says never AI, and that's it, everything goes in the recycle bin and those that accept it, 

Thor: I think we see that always with any technology. You're always going to have people that are like never this technology, always this technology. And I don't think either of those extremes make a lot of sense to me, frankly. I think there's good uses of tools and bad uses of tools. And when it comes down to this one, I think the best use of tool that you can have is [01:09:00] ensuring that the artists themselves have been licensed for you to be able to create that generative work.

Thor: And if that makes, if that's done, then I don't think there's a problem there, 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: It's tough, not to interrupt, but that's it. I fully agree with you, by the way, just, you know, where, where Gavin and I are from credit and compensation is something we've screamed about a lot. , and we'll continue to scream about, but where, where I think it gets murky for some is , the never airs we'll say, even if you had a team generate. 500 images of your retro futuristic toaster for your game even if you had your team generate all that original art, it still goes into a machine that is, , has benefited from being trained on a bunch of different art that may or may not have been licensed. In the past, right? Ultimately, even Adobe. Yeah. Even Adobe with their stated, this is an artist centric Firefly model. Everybody gave us permission. We're all friends here. Even AI stuff got swept up into that. So at some point, you have to accept a little bit of maybe poison in the well, right.

Thor: I think you'd have to prove the training data. You'd have to prove The training data. Like I think if you want to [01:10:00] buy public trust in what you're doing, you have to prove the sources of all training data that goes into the model, right?

Thor: And it's funny too, because we've already seen generative AI in large scale games. Like if you look at, um, God, what is that game called? No.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Finals had it on the voiceover side for sure. For script and

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: text to speech. But that was, uh, it wasn't

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: art itself. 

Thor: Rick and Morty game. The Rick and 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, 

Thor: where it's a gun. High on life. 

Thor: All the backgrounds in High on Life are AI generated. All of it. If you look at all the posters, every single thing in there is, is, uh, AI generated.

Thor: If we go look up High on Life Right. now, And

Thor: you look up AI generation, they said they used it for finishing touches, but it's all the posters, everything in the backgrounds, all of that stuff is using 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Right. And 

Thor: tell when it was in it, because, the reason they did it is because, at the time, AI was generating text that looked like alien text, and it works really well in a game about aliens, right. Makes sense. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: The broken nature of it was a feature. Yeah. 

Thor: Yeah.

Thor: Depending on what tool they use, they likely didn't get that in house, right? They likely didn't build all that stuff in house, and it is now in a commercial work that is [01:11:00] out in the public. And that really comes down to, well, are you going to fight it? Is it going to be fought?

Thor: And I don't think that's been fought in High On Life, really at all. I don't think a lot of people cared, which is interesting. At the same time, if we were to use something, I would not use any generated images unless we had full license to all of the training data. But you'd have to prove that you had full license to all of the training data, right?

Thor: I'd show everyone, here's all the assets where they came from. This is everything, right? This is what it is, is what we used. And that would be kind of the whole point of it is to make sure that that was public and to be real with you, to go an extra mile, to show people, this is all the art that went into it.

Thor: You're actually calling attention to every one of the artists that decided to, you know, put the license up there and give you the license, which draws attention to their work outside of that training data too, which is beneficial for them, or would be if you had that agreement, right? Where you guys agreed upon doing such a thing.

Thor: So I think there's positive ways of doing this, but I think there's also If you don't know what's going into the machine, you probably shouldn't be running the machine, right? 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: I think the question, it does feel like, I think Kevin was getting to this point, is it [01:12:00] does feel like it is a tricky thing to have this incredible tool at your disposal. And then do you go out and try to in on the backend, make deals with all those people?

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: I mean, this is where it becomes like so crazy, or maybe you start in retrain again. Like, do you have 

Thor: have to do it over. yeah, you'd have to start over. It'd have to be a clean slate. The way that I kind of see AI right now is very Wild West, right? We have this new technology. It does all this wild shit. We're going to take a whole bunch of stuff, break a bunch of laws, you know, not care about anybody's copyright and just throw it through and then, okay, now let's do it the right way.

Thor: And like, that makes a lot of sense. to me in the way that that kind of technology went forward. That's why I stay away from, you know, generative AI right now. To be real with you, I think the best use case for AI currently is, like I said, is in the medical industry and things like that for solving problems that actually don't have a drawback to solving them, 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Now, I would argue though, in some ways, that same data set is being trained on people's work in different ways, right? Like, and maybe because it's science, it's not as is seen. It's not as like specific to a person, but it is tricky. This is the whole thing. It's like, what is a collective 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: I think we [01:13:00] should shut it all down. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: mean to create 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: just nuke the servers. We have the technology. Let's just get rid of it.

Thor: Just nuke it all. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: By the way, , that was a sincere suggestion that Tucker Carlson gave on the Joe Rogan podcast three times. And was not questioned. He

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: really, he really said that a logical use of the nuclear arsenal would be to take down the servers that are currently training and powering AI. 

Thor: training. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: No joke. No

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: question. I just wanted to let you all know in case you want to put that on your Spotify radar. 

Thor: gonna go, listen to that. What the, what? 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: No, don't,

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Don't Thor. You're better than that. You, you make good stuff. Don't context switch in that way. Please don't. 

Thor: I have to, I have to trust but verify. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Thor, tell us a little bit about your game. It was a wrap up here. I want to 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: That's what I wanted to get 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: and tell us about what it is and how people can get it and kind of the work that's gone into it.

Thor: Yeah,

Thor: so, when I was a kid, I um, when I was in high school, I was actually leader of comic book club back in high school. And I uh, [01:14:00] I wrote a comic that was a chooser and adventure. Cause I liked the idea of somebody having control over where they go in a book. That's kind of neat. Right. And I wrote a book called heartbound and it, was this tiny little comic book.

Thor: It was like 20 pages, something like that. I had a blast making it. And one day I was like, one day I'm going to make a game out of this. Right. Cause my dad was in the gaming industry. So I was like, I'm going to make games. I'm going to do that. And then I went down the security route and I stayed far away from, I got further and further away from games, even though I was working in the games industry for a lot of that, and then it worked for the government and like, I just kept moving farther and farther away.

Thor: And then I got an opportunity to make my own game studio. So I did. And I started making my own games and we worked on Heartbound. And it is a choose your own adventure RPG. It's incredibly experimental, right? There's not really anything else that plays quite like it that I've found. And because of that, my whole model on it was I'm gonna prove to you guys what I'm making.

Thor: I'm gonna show you what I'm doing every day. It's gonna take me a long time. Most of the rooms in there have hundreds of routes through them. Many of them have different quests. Encounters that either no one has ever seen or likely very few people and with that in mind, it's been work done now for about seven years and we're in early [01:15:00] access and it's sitting in 96 percent positive reviews because of the amount that's gone into it I do all the programming, writing, and design for it. So all the writing is mine, all the bad dad jokes, those are mine. You know, the design for each of the environments, the framing for everything, the technical arts, so like, um, lighting and shadows and things like that, and particle effects, that I do that.

Thor: Shea does the art and animation, so anything you see visually outside of the technical art, that's all Shea. And the music is all Stijn van Wakeren, who's our, our musician that lives in the Netherlands. Phenomenal.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: music is amazing. It is so good. It's 

Thor: The music is great. Yeah. There's a hundred songs in the OST now. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Jesus.

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: incredible. Wow. 

Thor: it's three and a half hours of music. And we also, we put that up on steam as well. So That's that's the OST up there. And one of the things we put on it is if you want to stream or have YouTube videos, you can play that music in the background. We'll never DMCA. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: awesome. That's awesome. You almost have enough to train your own model, by the way, from the sounds of it. You could single handedly.

Thor: We're getting there. We can do it. I can't wait. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: about a, what about a mud or a muck or a, just a, like a, even an AI powered [01:16:00] bulletin board where you log in and because the LLMs are pretty good at stringing together text, it just generates a bulletin board esque experience for you. And when you go into the game, it's generating the game for you as well.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Is that crazy? That's crazy. Yeah, all of 

Thor: like AI generated posts. That sounds like 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: all of it. 

Thor: like Twitter pretty much daily, right? 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: No less Lincoln bio. Yeah. When you hit show more replies, it's so great that by the way, they've 

Thor: bit of Lincoln 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: there. They got good at flagging the Lincoln bio. They got good at flagging like the only fan stuff, but instead of just nuking it from the platform, they just let you click a button to disclose it.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: It's like, we still need the traffic. We still need the juice. We need to show the daily active users, but we'll just try to hide it. 

Thor: To be honest with you I'm, I'm mostly wondering, like, are they doing this so they can collect enough data to make sure they know what they're doing when they pull the trigger? Right. Cause like when I worked in security at blizzard, cause I worked there for seven years, a lot of it was like, okay, we're going to form a detection.

Thor: Let's review the data before we ban all these people. Right. So if you're looking at that, I'm, It's easy to think like, um, maybe there's doing it for money. Maybe they are Right. But also [01:17:00] from the security side, I'm like, maybe they're just collecting data. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: That does make 

Thor: make sense. to do it 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: Yeah. Filter it, keep it, gather more data, get more 

Thor: maybe, Yeah. Cause you don't want to, you don't want to ban a shitload of real users, right? That would suck. And then you also don't want to have the bots adapt. That's one of the worst things. It's like one of the things I always tell people, people are like, why don't you just ban them instantly? Like, no, dude, you do ban waves.

Thor: You do them like every three to six months. There's two reasons for that. The first one is you get enough data to ban them all at once and they don't know how they got detected. That's great. That's super positive. And the other one is the guy making the bots. And now he gets tens of thousands of people sending him angry threats because all of these people just got banned.

Thor: You've just turned all those guys into ammunition. They just smash the guy, you know, with chargebacks and threats and anything else that's going on. It's like he's just got an angry mob, you know.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: It's a fleshy

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: denial of service attack. I like it. That's good. Maybe I think it's probably , the, the easiest explanation is that Elon just likes seeing those at the end of his scroll and maybe that's why it's still there. 

Thor: Is That what it is? It's like, oh, you know, I do. I do think that LinkedIn bio is a very healthy part of this website. I [01:18:00] like saying that. Sounds good. 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: So where, where can people find you online? What's the easiest place to find you?

Thor: So best place to find me is, uh, piratesoftware. live, so that'll take you to the Twitch stream. So I'm on Twitch's twitch. tv slash piratesoftware, and also twitch. tv slash ferretsoftware, because I run a ferret rescue. It's 24 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Oh, cool.

Thor: well. Yeah, we actually, we decided to make a rescue for ferrets. We have 37 in the rescue right now.

Thor: We're actually scaling it up this year, so we're going to have the largest rescue in the United States. So we're going to be building a big facility and doing this. And the entire thing is funded by ad revenue from Twitch, which is amazing. Wild, right? So we're using ads to do something that doesn't suck, you, 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: That's 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: incredible. 

Thor: hate ads So like it's it's a nice way to do something with it.

Thor: And then um on top of that I'm over on YouTube We have a discord discord. gg slash pirate software Discord is completely geared around teaching people as much as possible and there's like tons of roles and things in there So you can learn different subjects. None of its paywalled. It's all just free information everything for 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: so cool. 

Thor: And there's 120, 000 people in there now, so 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: Oh my god, that's 

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: incredible Thor. Yeah, 

Thor: terrifying. 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: what are we doing with our [01:19:00] lives? What are you?

gavin_1_04-30-2024_153908: All I'm saying is we're never we're never gonna make Thor angry because he could turn the fleshy anger at us very fast Kevin So we're gonna make sure we keep 

Thor: I'm just gonna announce, I'm gonna announce to you guys after this and there's gonna be like 50, 000 people just blow up your whole website. That's how it works. We call it, it's like Goblins of Service, it's the hug of 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: I love that. Yeah.

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: well

Thor: the goblins show up and they hug you to 

kevin_1_04-30-2024_123908: we get throttled after five visits. I found that out the hard way when I told my own family about our podcast. So please send them on thank you for the time. And thank you for everything that you're doing. I mean, genuinely just really love what you're doing and really appreciate you.

Thor: thank you very much. Thanks for having me on. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: A thousand thanks to pirate software for the time and the energy. And if you made it this far, if this is your first listen, congratulations, you did it and what a week you chose to finally tune in, we probably should thank Kevin Rose yet again, a good friend. We had a great time on his podcast.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Always fun. , waxing poetic with him. If you liked this, please subscribe, [01:20:00] give a thumbs up. Like it, engage with it. , every ounce of juice helps us in the sea of algorithms because we're still a relatively new show. , and one of the things we like to do is to shout out everybody who leaves us a five star review on Apple podcasts and Gavin, we have three to get through.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Oh!

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: the two and a half. It's two and a half. 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: Oh, interesting. Left by Acletus the God. This five star Apple podcast review does in fact say Secretly Written by Kevin. It is not. The body of the review says, as a huge fan of Attack of the Show and G4, as soon as I figured out Kevin was on a podcast, I ran to my computer and over the course of about a month, I listened to every single episode. Kevin and Gavin make AI digestible and to understand while goofing around in the best possible ways. Really proving that an idiot like me can use this stuff. Kevin will always be a wonderful host with charisma and insight into the tech world and Gavin is there too. Thank you for getting our dynamic all jokes aside. I seriously [01:21:00] love the podcast. Keep them coming guys. I love getting my a new AI news from you too. Well, thank you. That was very, very thoughtful,

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: very kind and not. Secretly written by me.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: Okay, we have another one. That's keep it weird. Klaus Mayer, he says, thanks for bringing back the monster milk and combo with the Lamba three model. The CEO of monster milk Merle made me laugh out loud. I also appreciate that you guys take the time to use the models and tools rather than just reading the press releases, keep it up and keep it weird.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: And I do want to, I shouted this one out first because our last one, the half is actually an. Updated five star review, which I didn't know you could do on Apple podcasts, but this is an updated review. Well, you've read this a couple of weeks ago from toddles one, two, three. And if you remember toddles one, two, three, said, here's your five stars now earn it.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: He was kind of threatening us a little bit to make 

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: and it worked. 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: weird 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: and It worked, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: it worked. it worked.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: quickly, very efficiently.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: he said update. Thank you. That was the best. A llama on monster's milk wearing the grizzled old skin CEO. If I could give you [01:22:00] 10 stars I would. Woop everybody. Woop woop everyone.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: , to that point, Gavin, we have a lot of lore in our podcast that we sometimes get back to. And it's very off putting to new listeners and we

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: understand that. So we were toying with the idea of doing basically a checkpoint episode, if you will, where we can send new listeners. So they understand who we are, what this podcast is about and get them up to speed on the basics of AI terminology, where the tools are, what the concerns are, et cetera, so that way we're not.

kevin_2_04-30-2024_133147: consistently re explaining everything on every episode. So I would love, , if you've made it this far in the podcast and you haven't already shared it with a friend and liked and subscribed and all that fun stuff, I would love for you to leave a comment on what you think would be valuable , to hear in one of those early episodes, because, we have our thoughts on what's important out there, but what would have been helpful to you to know right off the rip, that will be very helpful to Gavin and I, as we put together this episode, 

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: yeah, what we wanted to really do with this is try to create a video [01:23:00] that everybody could watch and get caught up on some of the basics in AI. This would not take the place of an actual episode. We would do this probably in addition to an episode, but we do think this would be a really cool thing that lots of people could send to people if they have questions about AI.

gavin_2_04-30-2024_163147: So please do that. Okay, everybody. Bye.